Next movement of band piece by Evan!

Hello! 

I am following up from this post with the 2nd movement of my piece: 

You all said it really sounded like there needed to be a movement after that one, so I decided to write it! Also, some really great news; after showing my band director (who I am writing the piece for) the movement above, he GUARANTEED my school's top ensemble will be playing it for one of our spring concerts this year!

I strongly recommend you listen to the post above to get some of the context of motifs coming back, but I would really like your feedback on this movement.

Pretty much everything everyone criticized I tried to improve in some ways. Now, a lot of this project is pushing my writing further than it has ever gone, and some aspects I just am not good enough of a composer to go from having the problems I have to them being gone two months later. I really tried to include more melodic sections, and variations in them at that, as well as making a more climactic ending. I like to think of this song (both movements so far) having 3 separate climaxes back to back, finalizing their respective ideas. It provides one last callback to a certain motif or two in the most orchestrated/climactic way I can manage.

I am not sure the ending for this one will be any more satisfying than last time, but I tried to make it a little less dense with random stuff. Like, in the movement above, the ending kinda throws a bunch of stuff together to create a blob of sound (between polyrhythms, dissonant lines, some motifs from across the piece). This ending is similar, but I feel like it is a lot more clear? I want to know what you guys think.

Any problems in the score I am aware of. Once the piece is written, I will be engraving the score and making things bigger/things like the accent+stacc into marcotto. A lot of these symbols make the midi sound a certain way, so when I write the piece I usually use the wrong symbols to get the sound I need.

Wow!  Another quite bombastic movement from Evan in the books!  There's a lot going on and the motion scarcely ceases.  That's I think both a strength and a weakness.  It forces you to create contrasts in other ways while maintaining your minimalist perpetuum mobile groove always chugging along underneath.  I like the melody you introduce in the brass right before the frenzied ending - that's a nice touch and I guess your attempt to make a more conclusive and convincing finale.  I for one think it worked - the piece doesn't end in a seemingly arbitrary place but builds the listeners expectations towards a finale.  Well done!

I see you're still having trouble coming up with adequate titles.  Whenever I have this problem I try to imagine a extra-musical context for my piece, whether for a film, video game, or imagine what kind of setting/place in a novel it could portray - or what kind of character it could embody.  Maybe if you can't find a pre-existing context for your music you could come up with your own by writing your own poem or short story.  Just some ideas I'm throwing at ya.

Great job and I'm stoked to hear the live performance! (Congratulations btw)

This is just great. I love the energy and the textures you create. It's certainly ambitious but it really pays off. The ostinato, the time signature changes, the use of percussion all combine to great effect. It looks as though earlier versions made you revisit and rework the piece and that's all part of being creative, I reckon. Thanks for sharing this. It's a really enjoyable piece.

I really enjoyed listening to this (and its companion movement). The energy, the textures, all great. I would love to see a live performance, and it looks like you have a chance of getting one.

That said, I do have concerns about playability. On the computer everybody has perfect technique and perfect rhythmic sense but in real life that's rarely true. On page 28 you're assuming that baritone sax and piccolo are equally agile, but they're not; you'd need an outstanding sax player to make this sound like it's written. Also on this page the 1st clarinet part is a bit of a finger twister. Starting at bar 81, lots of people playing loudly have nowhere to breathe for a really long time. Wind players will put up with this sort of thing from orchestral composers, who are sometimes fixated on strings and bowing and not about winds and breathing; but if you're writing FOR wind ensemble (and it sounds like you play IN a wind ensemble) then you can't just punt on this unless you are totally OK with your players leaving out whatever notes they want to. You're expecting a lot of range from your horn section; 1st horn has to hit a written B-flat above the staff at bar 81, and 4 seconds later come in cold on the C almost 3 octaves below. I'm not a horn player but I think that's really tough and maybe borderline impossible. And the big downward jumps in the tenor sax from bar 168 to 171 are also, well, let's say uncharacteristic of the instrument. And the irregular meters throughout -- I love them but when I was in school few to none of my classmates could have handled anything like this. If yours can, well, hats off to your music and math faculty!

I don't want to be discouraging, because you've got a terrific voice and I would love to see and hear this piece played well, but I think you may need professionals to achieve what you've imagined.

Really well done! The energy was very striking and very enjoyable throughout. My practical experience with wind instruments extends only to thrift store purchases that I have little knowledge of how to play, but I'll do my best to give relevant feedback. Some of my comments have already been brought up, but I'll repeat them anyway. 

First of all, the time signatures are probably too much. The irregular meter is one of my favorite character elements, but for college musicians (unless you're at Curtis or something), this is most likely impossible. Even pieces notorious for abundant metric changes are difficult for professionals. The musicians will surely try their best, but this may end up sounding like a mess.

The parts you've written are very involved, and that isn't a bad thing. But keep in mind that musicians get tired. As others have pointed out, make sure you have plentiful places of breath. I'd add an encouragement to compose more extended breaks so that the players have a chance to be relieved from the constant pressure. The perpetual motion in the piece

Though this piece is very rhythmic in nature, I think it could benefit from more harmonic interest. Oftentimes you have some given tonality repeated for very extended periods. Understand that I was never bored by this, but I would be more engaged by more interesting harmony or more varied tonality. I wouldn't call this a problem to fix; more just something to improve.

In terms of readability, I will admit that your dynamics confused me. For instance, sextuple-forte (fortissississississimo?) is all but impossible to achieve. In places like the final measure, where you've marked a crescendo from quadruple-forte to sextuple-forte, the intended differences become negligible, even nonexistent. You've used this marking in many, many places throughout the piece. It might sound crazy, but try being more conservative in your dynamic usage. Instead of experimenting with how many fortes you can add before it stops getting louder, try the much simpler marking possibile. As a musician, it's often easier to know what the composer is saying when I see ff possibile (or even fff possibile) than when I see 500 f's. Perhaps there's a time and a place for sextuple-forte (Albéniz marked a fffff in Fête-Dieu à Séville), but such markings are better reserved for hyperbolically indicating, in the extreme-est cases, the single greatest climax of a piece rather than copiously marking higher than fortissimo. 

The texture seems constantly full; not necessarily full tutti the whole time, but nearly always full. This matters for three reasons. First, such textures begin to wane in interest quite quickly if used too extensively. Second, it reduces the scale of dynamic contrasts. Have you ever wondered why tutti passages are nearly always loud or even the climax of a piece? I used to. And then, I realized that with so many instruments playing at the same time, having an ensemble play quietly is very difficult (I'll talk more about this later) and my orchestration since has been all the better for that. I now employ tutti very hesitantly (probably too hesitantly, to be frank), preferring to operate in more transparent textures. In the places where you mark quiet dynamics (I saw pianississimo and niente), a full texture will not help you out. Especially with the niente. Incidentally, in the places where you've marked diminuendo al niente, it's really wasteful of this niche marking to have other instruments come in before the effect ends. Just do diminuendo to piano or just plain diminuendo. I'd maybe even argue that you don't employ niente at all, as it doesn't fit the energy of the piece (in my opinion). I mentioned transparent textures earlier. That brings me to number three: full textures reduce the color of an ensemble. I'm sure you're very familiar with the different timbres in a wind ensemble. When you have a lot of different timbres at the same time, the color of each diminishes exponentially. To produce more variance, consider thinning out the texture more (which will also help you in achieving quieter dynamics). I'm the organist for my church, and one of the first things I learned when I started playing the organ was that there's a point where adding more stops changes literally nothing: not dynamic, not color. The same can be said for an ensemble. 

With what I was saying before, full textures are even more difficult to make quiet when the ensemble in question is composed of wind, brass, and percussion: the loudest instruments of all! Related, be careful with the double bass. It's neither a loud nor particularly penetrating instrument, especially compared to the other instruments in the ensemble. I don't know how many bassists are in your ensemble, but even a large group of them will probably fail to be heard in your texture. If it's just one player...well, they really might as well not play anything.

That concludes my feedback! Even though I focused on the things I think could be better, I want you to know that I really enjoyed listening to this movement. You did a lot of things very well! I'm excited to hear about the live performance this spring, and even more excited to see the work that you put on here in the future!

Best,

Jacob

55 minutes ago, JWNewton said:

Really well done! The energy was very striking and very enjoyable throughout. My practical experience with wind instruments extends only to thrift store purchases that I have little knowledge of how to play, but I'll do my best to give relevant feedback. Some of my comments have already been brought up, but I'll repeat them anyway. 

First of all, the time signatures are probably too much. The irregular meter is one of my favorite character elements, but for college musicians (unless you're at Curtis or something), this is most likely impossible. Even pieces notorious for abundant metric changes are difficult for professionals. The musicians will surely try their best, but this may end up sounding like a mess.

The parts you've written are very involved, and that isn't a bad thing. But keep in mind that musicians get tired. As others have pointed out, make sure you have plentiful places of breath. I'd add an encouragement to compose more extended breaks so that the players have a chance to be relieved from the constant pressure. The perpetual motion in the piece

Though this piece is very rhythmic in nature, I think it could benefit from more harmonic interest. Oftentimes you have some given tonality repeated for very extended periods. Understand that I was never bored by this, but I would be more engaged by more interesting harmony or more varied tonality. I wouldn't call this a problem to fix; more just something to improve.

In terms of readability, I will admit that your dynamics confused me. For instance, sextuple-forte (fortissississississimo?) is all but impossible to achieve. In places like the final measure, where you've marked a crescendo from quadruple-forte to sextuple-forte, the intended differences become negligible, even nonexistent. You've used this marking in many, many places throughout the piece. It might sound crazy, but try being more conservative in your dynamic usage. Instead of experimenting with how many fortes you can add before it stops getting louder, try the much simpler marking possibile. As a musician, it's often easier to know what the composer is saying when I see ff possibile (or even fff possibile) than when I see 500 f's. Perhaps there's a time and a place for sextuple-forte (Albéniz marked a fffff in Fête-Dieu à Séville), but such markings are better reserved for hyperbolically indicating, in the extreme-est cases, the single greatest climax of a piece rather than copiously marking higher than fortissimo. 

The texture seems constantly full; not necessarily full tutti the whole time, but nearly always full. This matters for three reasons. First, such textures begin to wane in interest quite quickly if used too extensively. Second, it reduces the scale of dynamic contrasts. Have you ever wondered why tutti passages are nearly always loud or even the climax of a piece? I used to. And then, I realized that with so many instruments playing at the same time, having an ensemble play quietly is very difficult (I'll talk more about this later) and my orchestration since has been all the better for that. I now employ tutti very hesitantly (probably too hesitantly, to be frank), preferring to operate in more transparent textures. In the places where you mark quiet dynamics (I saw pianississimo and niente), a full texture will not help you out. Especially with the niente. Incidentally, in the places where you've marked diminuendo al niente, it's really wasteful of this niche marking to have other instruments come in before the effect ends. Just do diminuendo to piano or just plain diminuendo. I'd maybe even argue that you don't employ niente at all, as it doesn't fit the energy of the piece (in my opinion). I mentioned transparent textures earlier. That brings me to number three: full textures reduce the color of an ensemble. I'm sure you're very familiar with the different timbres in a wind ensemble. When you have a lot of different timbres at the same time, the color of each diminishes exponentially. To produce more variance, consider thinning out the texture more (which will also help you in achieving quieter dynamics). I'm the organist for my church, and one of the first things I learned when I started playing the organ was that there's a point where adding more stops changes literally nothing: not dynamic, not color. The same can be said for an ensemble. 

With what I was saying before, full textures are even more difficult to make quiet when the ensemble in question is composed of wind, brass, and percussion: the loudest instruments of all! Related, be careful with the double bass. It's neither a loud nor particularly penetrating instrument, especially compared to the other instruments in the ensemble. I don't know how many bassists are in your ensemble, but even a large group of them will probably fail to be heard in your texture. If it's just one player...well, they really might as well not play anything.

That concludes my feedback! Even though I focused on the things I think could be better, I want you to know that I really enjoyed listening to this movement. You did a lot of things very well! I'm excited to hear about the live performance this spring, and even more excited to see the work that you put on here in the future!

Best,

Jacob

 

 

Jacob, this is a very helpful and in depth comment that I thank you for. Obviously, things that cannot be fixed without changing the entire piece (harmonic variety, for one) are just things to work on towards the future, so I will not comment on that. I am in school for composition and am being pushed/am pushing myself with every new project. Things like the chaotic middle section of this piece would not have happened a year ago, so who knows what unique harmonies are coming to Evan's music near you!

I do imagine the time signatures will make this piece difficult. I have no doubts about that increasing the difficulty. If I must say one thing, I think the way they are employed into the groove will help a lot. If this piece were just getting a reading, I would not even submit it because sightreading this would not even be worth the time. However, I believe I have written the time displacements into the feel of the piece in a way it can be learned rather quickly. This movement is more involved than the last one I wrote, but that one still has lots of 7/8 type things, and my band director said that movement was perfect for our group. If my ensemble is committed to learning this piece, I think this movement (rhythmically) is going to be okay. 

The involvement: I feel part of this is due to the upcoming engraving stage where I will actually include breath marks, but I definitely understand this. This is actually a comment that has me wanting to look back through and see how I can break up the parts to become less involved.

I have been noticing the full texture thing even through my MIDI recording, as well as from some performed large ensemble pieces. I think this is another thing on the page of harmonies, but I am actually dialing it back a lot and working on employing smaller textures. I think writing chamber music for the rest of this year like I have planned will greatly benefit the next larger project I try to do (which will probably be orchestra).

That sucks about double bass! Unfortunately it is just 1. Well, I will go in expecting that sound to be less than present... at the very least, I wanted to write fun and involved parts, so at least the player will be kept busy haha.

I read your private message, and trust me, I do not take offense. Even if this was meant hurtfully, I know I created something cool, but that does not mean it is devoid of flaws. This has been a project I have been deeply inspired to push myself for because I might get the opportunity to have my school perform it, and that is just a huge dream. Up and up, and this is a landmark in my composition journey thus far. It's only been 5 years, so I am not walking around thinking this is perfect and unjust from criticism. You are one of the only people to give real criticism, and now I am going to go back and splice parts/dynamics to make the end result better. 

My dynamics are usually the result of the playback not giving me the sound I need (I think I have some earwax buildup that is making it harder to hear quieter things), but I usually go back and make dynamics more... realistic in the engraving stage.

1 hour ago, Eickso said:

I do imagine the time signatures will make this piece difficult. I have no doubts about that increasing the difficulty. If I must say one thing, I think the way they are employed into the groove will help a lot. If this piece were just getting a reading, I would not even submit it because sightreading this would not even be worth the time. However, I believe I have written the time displacements into the feel of the piece in a way it can be learned rather quickly. This movement is more involved than the last one I wrote, but that one still has lots of 7/8 type things, and my band director said that movement was perfect for our group. If my ensemble is committed to learning this piece, I think this movement (rhythmically) is going to be okay. 

You know your ensemble much better than I do, so I'll defer to your judgment there. I do agree with you though; the irregular meter is certainly not out of place at all, and will be easier to learn than truly random meter changes.

1 hour ago, Eickso said:

I have been noticing the full texture thing even through my MIDI recording, as well as from some performed large ensemble pieces. I think this is another thing on the page of harmonies, but I am actually dialing it back a lot and working on employing smaller textures. I think writing chamber music for the rest of this year like I have planned will greatly benefit the next larger project I try to do (which will probably be orchestra).

 I'm glad! Have you tried writing for solo piano? I found that experimenting with piano textures prepared me well to compose for ensembles where texture is more delicate.

1 hour ago, Eickso said:

That sucks about double bass! Unfortunately it is just 1. Well, I will go in expecting that sound to be less than present... at the very least, I wanted to write fun and involved parts, so at least the player will be kept busy haha.

Yeah, I wouldn't count on hearing them. Absolutely go for that. Bassists love fun parts. I don't know if you're planning to rework anything, but a bass solo would be sort of fun!

1 hour ago, Eickso said:

I read your private message, and trust me, I do not take offense. Even if this was meant hurtfully, I know I created something cool, but that does not mean it is devoid of flaws. This has been a project I have been deeply inspired to push myself for because I might get the opportunity to have my school perform it, and that is just a huge dream. Up and up, and this is a landmark in my composition journey thus far. It's only been 5 years, so I am not walking around thinking this is perfect and unjust from criticism. You are one of the only people to give real criticism, and now I am going to go back and splice parts/dynamics to make the end result better.

I'm really glad that you found my comments useful and that they weren't unfairly blunt. You have an awesome perspective on your music, and I think that you'll go far with that.

3 hours ago, Eickso said:

My dynamics are usually the result of the playback not giving me the sound I need (I think I have some earwax buildup that is making it harder to hear quieter things), but I usually go back and make dynamics more... realistic in the engraving stage.

Ha! Believe me, I get that 😂

That makes a lot more sense now.

Hey, also: I don't give feedback quid pro quo, but since you offered...I've got a piece on here called Ballade in F-minor that I'm looking to submit to a competition, so if you want to give that a look, I'd be very grateful.