Composed vs. "discovered" music

There are certain moments in certain pieces that sound so completely “right” and natural to me that I’ve long imagined that they weren’t really composed so much as discovered — that they were always there since the beginning of time, somehow hanging in the air, waiting for someone to notice them and write them down.

Now, I don’t for an instant think this is literally true. And it’s not the same thing as instantly liking a piece on first hearing. I’m talking about a sense of utter perfection, that of course the music has to be just that and nothing else. The feeling is really strong when it happens. And I wonder, is this something genuine about the music and how it resonates with me at the moment? Or is it just a sense of familiarity and recognition? Maybe I heard this music when I was a very little kid and I don’t remember it, except as a happy experience?

Does anybody else experience something like this? What music does it for you? (I’m holding off giving my examples until others chime in.)

I don't know if I'd venture to claim that other composers didn't compose their music but only just discovered it, but I can certainly speak for myself.  I don't know if I'd ever refer to my music as "utter perfection" but there does sometimes seem to be a certain inevitability to some of my pieces, especially ones composed using the variations process.  I feel almost like once the theme is introduced, the different variations become more of an exercise in logically working out the various ideas I have to change/manipulate the theme into various new shapes and forms which usually end up escalating into more and more complex versions.  Sometimes the musical moments resulting from such working out of the material seem like they end up being better music than I could have ever come up with just working from inspiration alone (rather than using variation techniques).  That's just my own experience though.  Probably my two best variations pieces are "Scherzo and Variations for Piano and Orchestra" and "Divertimento and Variations for String Quartet".  Interesting topic!

Sometimes I hear a great piece of music, and the composer goes somewhere where I just say, "aw, why did it go there". In fact, that has happened a lot to me. However, there are others that just make me smile because it went everywhere it was supposed to go. Like it was destined to finish how it did. 

There are numerous examples I could give of Bach and Mozart, where once something was established, it went exactly where it should have gone. I think that's a testament to craftsmanship. Yet the Schubert impromptu in Gb minor is magic to me, like the melody was plucked from somewhere special and written with his hand. I also feel that way about Chopin's C# minor nocturne.

But what's even better is when the music is great, and then there's a moment that seems otherworldly. Like it couldn't have just been well thought out and written with logic and artistic direction (yet it almost certainly was). "The Swan of Tuonela" from Sibelius has one particular spot that always gets me, this high note from the English horn that seems like he heard this one moment and crafted the entire piece to lead to that note. Or a more prolific example is Beethoven, who to me had a sixth sense in saving the best part of a lot of pieces he wrote for this one climactic moment that always made me want to listen to the whole thing just to hear that spot and the development up to it. 

It always seemed like those pieces were destined to be written, as if the way we perceive music leads certain patterns to be wonderful and inevitable. I guess the trick is finding out some of them for ourselves. 

I think I understand what you're saying, Tom. I've often felt that about Bax's 3rd Symphony (and curiously also the 3rd from Rosenberg). Not just a fragement/episode but the whole work. It's as if the spirit of the composer tapped directly into some kind of etherial inspiration, becoming simply a channel to the written result. That probably doesn't make much sense but still. It's always in individual listeners' perceptions.

Perhaps I recognise it from my own efforts. Once I find I'm struggling with a work I know that it's me trying to compose it. When it's been easy and everything has flowed (more or less uninterrupted) I suspect I'm being used as a vassal to some inspirational supranatural force. I don't look deeper into it in case the spell breaks. My piece for mezzo and strings (I think I submitted it here) just happened.

I definitely know what you mean.  Sometimes it flows so easily that the music almost writes itself.  Sadly, this is very rare for me and most of the time its a struggle.

Hmmm.

I believe there are many ways to achieve that feeling in your own compositions and in others', but is it genuine? I think it may be, but it is a definitely subjective and in many occasions, very personal feeling. I also believe one does not necessarily have to be familiar with the piece in particular to stumble upon that, but getting closer to the piece definitely helps, either by listening to it or by playing it. In fact, I think one discovers even more of those "inescapable" bits when and while playing the piece. In summary, the more you "participate" on it, the closer you get and the better you get those feelings you could have sensed from the very first listening or rehearsal. I guess the ultimate level of getting close to a piece is composing it yourself, so this feeling you mention also happens when I listen to my own pieces. 

Some examples of other composers' pieces that arose that feeling on me (just mentioning a few):
• Adiós Nonino from Astor Piazzolla
• The first time I played M(8-9) from Beethoven's Sonata 14th Mvt. 3 and M(56-60) of the same one Mvt. 1
• The full sonatas 17th and 27th from Beethoven and 32nd Mvt. 1
• C. Czerny's sonata 1 Mvt. 2, sonata 2 Mvt.3
• V. Monti's Czardas
• V. Melocchi "Sangue Tzigano" for accordion solo (when played)
• F. Fugazza "Prelude E Fuga" for accordion solo (when played)

Some examples of my compositions:
• Sonata Nº2 (Piano, D minor), I, II and III movements.
• "The Grim Polka" for accordion & violin.
• "Nihilion's theme" for bass, synth & piano.
•  Nocturnes Nº6 & Nº20.
•  Sonata Nº3 (Piano, D major) Mvt. III

And that'd be it. Very interesting topic you brought, thanks!!

Kind regards,
Daniel–Ømicrón.

 

So it seems that this is a very subjective thing, and it came as a surprise to me that most of the pieces you all have cited that give you that "discovered" feeling are pieces I don't know, many from composers I've never heard of! But thanks for the listening suggestions - I'll get on that right away.

FWIW, some of my examples are the last movement of the 3rd Brandenburg (the whole thing - just pure joy); the spot in the last movement of Beethoven's 5th where the piccolo trill appears; and one of the episodes in the "Street in a Frontier Town" section of Copland's Billy the Kid. (Can't find a score to point to it but if anybody really wants to know I'll time-tag it in an online recording.)

It also surprised me that people took this thread as an opportunity to talk about their own compositions, which wasn't the point. Look, folks - we don't get to declare our own music to be perfect. Our music comes out of our own heads, so of course it sounds "right" to us. The issue is whether we are reaching other people, which is for them to determine.

On 9/25/2022 at 4:28 PM, Tom Statler said:

Or is it just a sense of familiarity and recognition? Maybe I heard this music when I was a very little kid and I don’t remember it, except as a happy experience?

Wait a sec, something just occurred to me...perhaps this is exactly what has happened when we encounter a work that we like. not necessarily something we heard in childhood but also possibly at any time during our lives. but if this is true it would not only be the surface details that we notice and appreciate. there would have to be something deeper there. most people like Beethoven, at least in the spheres that we all inhabit, but, for instance, Schoenberg? what happens when some first comes to like his music after not liking it? the music did not change, it must have been the listener. this sort of seems to be so blatantly obvious that i feel kind of stupid bringing it up. 

On 9/27/2022 at 3:25 AM, Thatguy v2.0 said:

destined

sometimes it can be a single moment that really makes a piece for me, often in terms of a particular performance. for instance, Gould's playing of the Eb Intermezzo for piano ends on an Eb chord which for me is placed perfectly in time, just a millisecond or so after i expect it and after i would  have played it. and the last chord of the first movement of Beethoven's Opus 109 piano sonata can also be placed similarly in time for me.