Nocturne Nº4

Hi again, guys.

This is probably not the right time to post anything since the competition is going on and I see many interesting submissions being posted, but I don't want to forget it again for another week. 

I wanted to share my fourth nocturne with you —finished on February 28th, 2022 if I'm not mistaken— just to maintain an order in those pieces and despite I have finished the last one of the entire set (23) today. Here's the video as usual:

And here is the score, for those who like me prefer to read while listening: 51 - Nocturno Nº4.pdf
 

I prefer not to say much about the nocturne itself and let you judge everything... As always, any kind of feedback, be it short, long, specific, ambiguous, etc. is very appreciated. Hope you find it decent at the least. Just for the record, and in case you are interested, I am leaving links to the previous thre...two nocturnes I posted here. The YT link to the Nº2 will suffice I believe:

                                                                                                         •   Nº1   •   Nº2   •   Nº3   •

That's all for now. Thank you in advance guys.

Kind regards, 
Daniel–Ømicrón.

I definitely got that searching and wandering feeling from this. Here is my interpretation:

I'd like to imagine the beginning is like a meditation of some sort, preparing for an unknown journey. It was interrupted suddenly with a loud note and then some ostinatos, which indicate that the journey has begun. I specifically like the use of ostinatos here to indicate like a search (in my interpretation), really gives you that spiral and descend into madness kinda feeling. The wandering melody twirled around in the upper register while the bass notes sometimes went chromatic in a way that gives an uneasy feeling. Sometimes it went to a major key, but then it switched back to a minor key which really shows how the journey is moving on. I specifically like the transition to the middle section, where it changed to an augmented chord for a minute before back to a meditation state. Gives that mystery feeling even more.

Before the end, the piece went into like a triumphant state where it sounded like they had finally found what they were looking for, but the piece ended in a minor key suddenly so I guess they didn't find anything after all.

Overall a solid piece! Thank you for sharing!

6 hours ago, Ferrum said:

I definitely got that searching and wandering feeling from this. Here is my interpretation:

I'd like to imagine the beginning is like a meditation of some sort, preparing for an unknown journey. It was interrupted suddenly with a loud note and then some ostinatos, which indicate that the journey has begun. I specifically like the use of ostinatos here to indicate like a search (in my interpretation), really gives you that spiral and descend into madness kinda feeling. The wandering melody twirled around in the upper register while the bass notes sometimes went chromatic in a way that gives an uneasy feeling. Sometimes it went to a major key, but then it switched back to a minor key which really shows how the journey is moving on. I specifically like the transition to the middle section, where it changed to an augmented chord for a minute before back to a meditation state. Gives that mystery feeling even more.

Before the end, the piece went into like a triumphant state where it sounded like they had finally found what they were looking for, but the piece ended in a minor key suddenly so I guess they didn't find anything after all.

Overall a solid piece! Thank you for sharing!

 

Your interpretation is quite interesting though is the end happening on a sudden really?, for example I'd say the end in Noc. 3 is much more abrupt and direct, in this case I think I did prepare the terrain a little more though I can see how perhaps an ending in Ab Major would be something to be expected. That said, I enjoyed reading your feedback, it's always very nice to receive such opinions, interpretations, whatever it be that makes me think about the piece itself in a way that I hadn't before.

Thank you =).

Hey Daniel, 

It's good to hear another one of your nocturnes! I'll share some thoughts in no particular order.

- Does the audio represent the rolled chords how you intended? Some of the chords were extraordinarily wide, would a real player be able to roll them that quickly? Or do you intend for slower arpeggios? Either is fine by me, but it feels difficult to play as I heard it represented.

- I love your melodies, especially the ornamentations. You have a great talent of taking something simple and decorating it in a really pretty way. Kudos on that, it was one of my favorite things about this piece.

- I also really enjoyed the breathing in the melody, like how you would give long rests in the right hand to let the listener focus on the motivic movement of the bass notes

- One way you could improve imo would be to vary up the ostinato throughout the piece. I know you do near the end a little bit (I'll get to that), but after a while it started to wear on me. 

- Awesome part at 1:35 in the left hand, I wish you did more with that section

- At 1:45, it's chords again. I felt like this section really took away from the momentum you had going. To be fair, it's fine to do it, but maybe it was a bit drawn out? Like the chord at 2:29 was a bit overkill for me, I felt like you could have gotten to the final chord a bit quicker. 

- Just curious, why Abm key instead of G#m? 7 flats vs. 5 sharps? I wouldn't say this is wrong, but just wondering the thought behind it

- My favorite parts were the sections at 3:00 and 3:13. Both were great developments

- 3:45, left hand again was wearing on me. I know you subtlety varied the motion, but it was just a reoccurring thing that kept popping out at me

- I love the Beethoven type ending at 4:14, I would have repeated those 2 measures with a crescendo

Overall, another wonderful work of yours. I've heard you do that left hand ostinato in one for your other nocturnes, and even though there's only so many ways we can dance around on a three note chord, I would constantly be experimenting with other ways of creating ostinatos. I admire your work and adore your musical voice, so any nitpicking I do to your music is only pulling mushrooms off of Bino's pizza; it's still one of my favorite places to eat. 

My favourite part is from bar 53-72, where there is some contrapuntal play and contrast of register. If the ending is more excited with more harmonic change, contrapuntal line and contrast of registers, it will be more dramatic. I always find it hard to compose character piece on piano, since you have to create a special timbre and atmosphere to attract listeners. But your piece certainly gives me an impression of wandering and struggling, and the choice of Ab minor is quite fit to that. What I don't like is the return of the opening material. I don't find it tranquillo, and I think it disturbs the overall flow of the piece. But maybe because of this section, I find the later section more flowing and attractive, I don't know. It's like the water flow is suddenly smooth after congesting.

Let's reply in order, thank you in advance guys.

Thatguy (v2.0):

20 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

- Does the audio represent the rolled chords how you intended? Some of the chords were extraordinarily wide, would a real player be able to roll them that quickly? Or do you intend for slower arpeggios? Either is fine by me, but it feels difficult to play as I heard it represented.

I would left this up to the interpreter but I believe that with enough practice it can be done the way I envision them (some most likely could do it at 1.5 speed I'm sure):
• The first ones would go like this

more or less at the speed played by the computer (the D5 should be played with the R.H, I forgot to note that) excepting the third one where I tried to tell musescore to do it slower (but it doesn't let me without big workarounds) playback-wise in the R.H than in the L.H, delaying those three last notes. In the second image I guess it gets more complicated but not impossible really. I can also specify the fingering if you want (I have not done it in any nocturne because both my teacher and another composer told me that I should not really do that because there's lots of times where someone will differ in the choice and it may even confuse some pianists. I may eventually add some digitation, I mean in this case it seems like it would help right?)

The other double hand arpeggios you encounter are smaller excepting the three last ones where the strategy is similar but the speed in this case is too high. In the final version (and the one published on the book whenever I assemble it) I will make sure to put a poco rit. there because despite I believe some pro pianist could work that out at the speed given, I did not want those arpeggios to go that fast, but it seems I didn't pay enough attention to this detail. This is specially true in the last one of the three when I even put a fermata to state I don't want the exact, fixed amount of time but as longer —as long as the interpreter considers— final arpeggio. Very good appreciation.

21 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

One way you could improve imo would be to vary up the ostinato throughout the piece. I know you do near the end a little bit (I'll get to that), but after a while it started to wear on me. 

Yeah, we agree on that. This is not my favourite nocturne and one of the reasons is that perhaps overly repeating ostinato. At this point and after making the third nocturne I was dubious; my pieces didn't seem like usual nocturnes and I put myself the task of listening all John Field's ones again. This overly repeated soft ostinato sections do happen in his works imo so perhaps that's an indirect inheritance of that. After this nocturne I came back to the reasoning I still maintain.

21 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

- Awesome part at 1:35 in the left hand, I wish you did more with that section

You will get tired of this (or a very similar pattern) when It becomes the intentional never-ending ostinato of another nocturne I made months after that =P.

21 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

- Just curious, why Abm key instead of G#m? 7 flats vs. 5 sharps? I wouldn't say this is wrong, but just wondering the thought behind it

Honestly I don't know if it's because my musical background, or what, but I find G#m harder than Abm. It's the very same thing I guess, but I thought this piece in terms of Ab, Db... So basically there's no logic behind. 

21 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

- My favorite parts were the sections at 3:00 and 3:13. Both were great developments

Possibly the smartest or "subtle" parts, I now feel that weariness now at 3:40 more, lol what did you do to me :'(.

It is always a pleasure to read your feedback, many thanks :).
 

Henry:

18 hours ago, Henry Ng said:

My favourite part is from bar 53-72, where there is some contrapuntal play and contrast of register. If the ending is more excited with more harmonic change, contrapuntal line and contrast of registers, it will be more dramatic. I always find it hard to compose character piece on piano, since you have to create a special timbre and atmosphere to attract listeners.

At the very least the ending could have benefited from a poco rubato that I must not forget to include (in the score). The lacking contrast point makes sense to me, it might have needed more. Perhaps ulterior nocturnes may convince you in that regard (or not, I am clueless; despite I feel I keep improving and refining myself with each composition that is not directly reflected in the piece, much less for everyone). 
 

I am having a similar struggle (the one you mention about giving character) but for a symphony I am making. It is definitely hard for me to create something "special" or something with a precise essence, mark, sign... Whatever it be.

18 hours ago, Henry Ng said:

But your piece certainly gives me an impression of wandering and struggling, and the choice of Ab minor is quite fit to that. What I don't like is the return of the opening material. I don't find it tranquillo, and I think it disturbs the overall flow of the piece. But maybe because of this section, I find the later section more flowing and attractive, I don't know. It's like the water flow is suddenly smooth after congesting.

Returning to the opening material is something my brain has wanted for almost every nocturne I made, for better or worse. And of course, that is entirely up to each listener so I can only be thankful for your honesty.

Reading your comments always makes my day, guys. Again, thanks for the thoughtful and sincere feedback. This is what I look for here and it is always what I get =).

Kind regards,
Daniel–Ømicrón.



 

2 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

I can also specify the fingering if you want (I have not done it in any nocturne because both my teacher and another composer told me that I should not really do that because there's lots of times where someone will differ in the choice and it may even confuse some pianists. I may eventually add some digitation, I mean in this case it seems like it would help right?)

This is kinda weird to me. Yes, an experienced pianist will consider your fingering suggestions, but at the end of the day, they will play it in the way they can execute it the best. I doubt it would confuse them. For someone challenging themselves to play your piece, if it's a bit out of their skill range, I personally would appreciate the composer notating a suggested fingering. I feel like there's no right or wrong here, and ultimately you have a much greater insight with your own piano teacher (trust me, I don't pretend to know everything about piano). But to someone like me, I'm always appreciative of a suggested fingering, whether I choose to use it or not.

2 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

You will get tired of this (or a very similar pattern) when It becomes the intentional never-ending ostinato of another nocturne I made months after that =P.

But that's a different piece! I just thought it sounded really cool, and for me, if I ever introduce something new to the music, if it's an idea I feel like is very strong (or developed) I would want it to be more prominent. 

2 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

Honestly I don't know if it's because my musical background, or what, but I find G#m harder than Abm. It's the very same thing I guess, but I thought this piece in terms of Ab, Db... So basically there's no logic behind. 

No biggie, some people prefer sharps over flats, others prefer the opposite. Whatever helps you think about your music.

2 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

lol what did you do to me :'(.

Mwuahahahahahahaha that's what I'm here for. But in all seriousness, those who care enough about your music to tell you what they dislike and like are your greatest asset. Consider what we say, but ultimately do what you desire to do with your art. 

5 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

Perhaps ulterior nocturnes may convince you in that regard (or not, I am clueless; despite I feel I keep improving and refining myself with each composition that is not directly reflected in the piece, much less for everyone).

That's the most important thing. If you feel you are improving and refining, you don't need to really care about other people comments. I am sorry that I have not listened to your previous nocturnes, but I am sure I will listen to them and compare them with this one.

5 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

Returning to the opening material is something my brain has wanted for almost every nocturne I made, for better or worse. And of course, that is entirely up to each listener so I can only be thankful for your honesty.

Yeah that's only my opinion. Personally I think it is really important to keep the flow moving (or rather, controlling time like a magician), but obviously it is not THE standard. Personally I think the term "tranquillo" does not fit into the return of the opening material because of the context.

5 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

Reading your comments always makes my day, guys.

I really adore you for that! I wish my piece can have comments too(haha!!)(Just kidding!)

On 10/9/2022 at 9:39 PM, Omicronrg9 said:

my fourth nocturne

this is so nice and very accomplished so of course i would change a few things! :-)

during the first section nothing really unexpected happened, not necessarily always a bad thing...nice chordal intro, quite dramatic near the end of it, very effective. however, the ostinato-ish bass line at 4:40 seems a bit trite here. but interestingly enough to me, once it returns after that marvelous middle section, it seems perfectly placed. maybe you went too big with it too soon?

so it isn't really the music that i am 'criticizing' but merely the presentation of parts of it.

8 hours ago, AKAChristopher said:

this is so nice and very accomplished so of course i would change a few things! 🙂

during the first section nothing really unexpected happened, not necessarily always a bad thing...nice chordal intro, quite dramatic near the end of it, very effective. however, the ostinato-ish bass line at 4:40 seems a bit trite here. but interestingly enough to me, once it returns after that marvelous middle section, it seems perfectly placed. maybe you went too big with it too soon?

so it isn't really the music that i am 'criticizing' but merely the presentation of parts of it.

The overly repetitive ostinato seems to be a flaw in this nocturne... As you can see you are not the only one that pointed that out. I myself think some variations wouldn't have hurt but "it's too late" for this one. Perhaps the next one will succeed where this one failed. But as I said in previous comments I do think my learning curve is not loyally reflected in my compositions. Some of them have better ideas behind, some worse I suppose.

Thanks for the review Christopher, I am glad you found it decent enough to check =). 

On 10/15/2022 at 9:53 AM, Henry Ng said:

I really adore you for that! I wish my piece can have comments too(haha!!)(Just kidding!)

Will make sure to check your pieces mate. Feel free to leave them in the forum chat in case I forget (I will likely get some rest now). Since it's more dead than alive it serves as a good site to put links or tell people to look into them. I am sure I'm not the only one eager to check for new pieces/composers to listen to. 

Kind regards and thank you again!

8 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

decent

no problemo! lets keep up the dialog. i was going to start with your earlier nocturnes but didnt have time to find them so just picked the 4th when i saw your post.

i used to be more active here but never really had many discussions...i have many videos of improvisations, some things written/notated, i guess we both have lots of material to...rip into!

On 10/17/2022 at 3:27 PM, AKAChristopher said:

i was going to start with your earlier nocturnes but didnt have time to find them so just picked the 4th

From now on I'll be leaving those n nocturnes in the n+1 nocturne post. I think it's the wisest thing I can do. Despite this forum has a quite decent userbase it is indeed true there's not so much interaction but I think it's kind of normal. You usually need to take your time (and some effort) in order to review a score. I see that posts have generally many views but very few comments nor valorations. However, this forum is quite lively compared to other sites where I dwell where there's a big score archive and a comment section but very few comments, much fewer than here.

1 hour ago, Omicronrg9 said:

From now on I'll be leaving those n nocturnes in the n+1 nocturne post. I think it's the wisest thing I can do. Despite this forum has a quite decent userbase it is indeed true there's not so much interaction but I think it's kind of normal. You usually need to take your time (and some effort) in order to review a score. I see that posts have generally many views but very few comments nor valorations. However, this forum is quite lively compared to other sites where I dwell where there's a big score archive and a comment section but very few comments, much fewer than here.

 

i post a lot of piano 'improvisations' on various facebook groups. at first i was disappointed in that discussions of these were rare (not simply my own, but everyone's). but then i thought about it and sort of concluded there isn't much to say about such things. the LIKE button is good enough for showing appreciation there.

but yes, this forum has a very decent amount of discussion. one reason is probably because composing is an activity that you think about much more in detail than extemporaneous playing and so words about that are easier to find. also when i come here it seems like i have entered an actual room somewhere while on FB it's like you are stranded in a desert with only an occasional...liferaft?...thrown your way.

moving on to another nocturne now. one day soon i will post a keyboard prelude here... 

On 10/23/2022 at 2:48 AM, AKAChristopher said:

also when i come here it seems like i have entered an actual room somewhere while on FB it's like you are stranded in a desert with only an occasional...liferaft?...thrown your way.

Indeed, YC >> Average Facebook chatrooms lol. Here one can usually find some quality feedback though I can understand reviewing a piece is not as effortless as hitting the like button. My lack of time due to irl things doesn't let me listen and review as many pieces as I would like to and I suppose it's more or less the same for other people. In fact I still have Henry Ng's clarinet quintet in the queue (it's one hour long!) as well as other pieces in works with few reviews I would like to listen to fully.

Would be cool to add that keyboard prelude of yours to said queue 😎

22 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

In fact I still have Henry Ng's clarinet quintet in the queue (it's one hour long!) as well as other pieces in works with few reviews I would like to listen to fully.

Thank you so much for your consideration of listening as well as reviewing my piece! I don't want to compose that long!!😂😂 But the inspiration keeps pushing me and I cannot stop composing it!

22 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

My lack of time due to irl things doesn't let me listen and review as many pieces as I would like to and I suppose it's more or less the same for other people

Me too! Plus I am really tired having a full time job+part time jobs+composing my own piece+reading books. Right now I am composing a string sextet, hopefully I can finish the first movement in a few weeks.

I hope I can listen your two nocturne no.1 and 2 asap!

22 minutes ago, Henry Ng said:

Thank you so much for your consideration of listening as well as reviewing my piece! I don't want to compose that long!!😂😂 But the inspiration keeps pushing me and I cannot stop composing it!

Haha It's alright and one almost always can split the listening movement by movement. I expect to get the required time for reviewing (as I have listened the first movement already but I don't think that's enough for a review in such kind of big work, in fact I often listen reviewed pieces at least twice or thrice) this or next weekend. Full time job + part time job schedules seem exhausting. Looking forward to check that sextet too, of course. Regarding those nocturnes, they will stay there so whenever you get some time and actually are eager to check them it will be fine. I am not in a rush to publish them here either 😛.

Kind regards!
 

I had a quick play through, and I think the spread chords are challenging; but manageable.

I've seen harder ones in Rachmaninoff and Chopin.

Definitely more playable than my piece "Joy", which is fiendishly difficult!

(I sent it to a pianist recently, and he's requested I rearrange it for four hands, because it's otherwise too hard to play at tempo.)

Your piece has a Spanish flavour that I really like, and it's fun to play.

Thanks for sharing.

No, thank you for the feedback Alex. Is your piece posted here BTW?

I believe all my pieces are definitely playable, not by me (or not yet at least) though lol. What I didn't expect is your comment regarding Spanish flavour, I did think ulterior nocturnes as well as Nº3 had (perhaps they have) more of that than this one. 

Kind regards!

Your piece made me think of some of Manuel De Falla's works for piano.

Hard to say exactly why!

I posted "Joy" here a few months ago.

You already reviewed it back in June.

As a solo piece it requires large jumps in both hands throughout. That's why the pianist found it so hard.

I also found it too difficult to play: so the four-handed arrangement is a definite improvement.

19 hours ago, Alex Weidmann said:

You already reviewed it back in June.

Listened to it again. Yeah I think I hear those large jumps hehe. The review was kinda scarce. Is the score (perhaps the four-hand arrangement) still private BTW? It would be nice to check it.