Discrepancy

Hi all,

This is my first post on here, and the first time I have submitted a piece to the public, so no pressure. I wrote this piece for my GCSE (where it scored 24/35 for those who care, I definitely don't) but I hold it fondly in my mind.

Anyways, here is a sort of brief/programme note:

The title of the piece is meant to reflect the mutual exclusivity between the initial tonal sound and the steadily increasing level of dissonance and atonal sound. The A section sets out a steady pulsing rhythm allowing a complex chord sequence. The B section introduces a metrical uncertainty between ¾ and 4/4 while bringing in even more dissonance building up to a tonal climax before a return to the subject. This leads into the fast run section which ends in a dissonant chord and a much slower tempo. The ending resolves the tension built up from the B section… Or does it…

Any criticism (or praise haha) would be much appreciated, enjoy!

I really liked it! It has an interesting mood to it. Thanks for sharing it!

4 hours ago, bored_comedy said:

I really liked it! It has an interesting mood to it. Thanks for sharing it!

 

Thank you very much, much appreciated!

Hi and welcome to the forum!

First off, I did really enjoy listening. The concept of tonality vs atonality is interesting and done well - there's a clear sense of progression here which is really good. Just a couple of points (personal preferences from me) you might want to consider:

I don't really like Bar 32. The piece has built up so gradually from the beginning, and then suddenly in Bar 31 you get a stream of semiquavers and you're building up the passion and the drama and the emotion and then it

...stops on the first beat of 32...

and then it starts again with all the fury and virtuosity it has before.

Hope my little representation in words got across my point! I think you want to keep the semiquaver movement through 32 - because it's a new idea I would be inclined to use it a bit before chopping and changing the colour.

My next point is about texture. Are you a pianist yourself? I wouldn't be surprised if you were, all the writing is very practical. But, I'll give an example of Bar 21. Marked ff, this is clearly a moment where you're looking for great power from the piano. Yet you have a gaping hole of a 10th between the highest LH and lowest RH notes, missing out on so much of the piano's intense middle register. I would consider rescoring the LH chords to move them higher so as to fill the texture out, and maybe even double the bass notes on each beat an octave lower. Have a look at powerful moments in Romantic period music to see what I mean.

Thanks for sharing your music and looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the above!

Sorry for the late reply...

2 hours ago, aMusicComposer said:

The concept of tonality vs atonality is interesting and done well

Thank you, it's encouraging to know that the music had its intended effect.

2 hours ago, aMusicComposer said:

I don't really like Bar 32. The piece has built up so gradually from the beginning, and then suddenly in Bar 31 you get a stream of semiquavers and you're building up the passion and the drama and the emotion and then it

It's interesting that you say this, I neither disagree nor agree with you. From my point of view as the composer, it was vaguely modelled on the break between the introduction to and the main theme of Chopin's 'Winter Wind' étude, giving the entry of the 'storm' of semiquavers with the heavy chords over the top a startling moment. From your feedback, I think your point is that it is too startling... is that correct? Again, I don't agree with you from my point of view as the composer, but I can't disagree with your interpretation and reaction- it is entirely valid and something for me to consider.

2 hours ago, aMusicComposer said:

Are you a pianist yourself? I wouldn't be surprised if you were, all the writing is very practical.

I am indeed (been playing for 12 years now) and thank you for saying that, it is interesting because I am always being told I should write more practically/idiomatically as my music tends to be more about what 'sounds good' rather than what is actually practical and even possible (even though I should really be conscious of this as a pianist myself).

3 hours ago, aMusicComposer said:

missing out on so much of the piano's intense middle register

I am going to have to disaree with you here. Personally I think the most dramatic register of the piano is the lower one- the Grave at the start of the exposition and of the development (the G minor chord) of the Pathétique sonata springs to mind where the low register makes the chords more heavy and appear to have a thicker texture even though voiced higher up they are the same. A follow-up question: why do you consider the middle register to be the most dramatic?

I hope all that makes sense and I look forward to your reply!

Thanks for your reply, lots of things to discuss!

1 hour ago, Charles Geday said:

It's interesting that you say this, I neither disagree nor agree with you. From my point of view as the composer, it was vaguely modelled on the break between the introduction to and the main theme of Chopin's 'Winter Wind' étude, giving the entry of the 'storm' of semiquavers with the heavy chords over the top a startling moment. From your feedback, I think your point is that it is too startling... is that correct? Again, I don't agree with you from my point of view as the composer, but I can't disagree with your interpretation and reaction- it is entirely valid and something for me to consider.

(Quick note - I wrote the following out in one go, it's very very wordy! If you want me to explain it again differently just ask)

You know, it's great that you're able to 'defend' the idea as such. The fact that you've thought about it and made a conscious decision means to me that you should keep it as it is. I'm not sure if it can quite be compared to the Winter Wind etude - the Chopin is successful because it opens with that slow, tranquil introduction then launches into the terrifyingly difficult stuff! OTOH, your piece has a full build up to what seems to the listener to be a climax, then has the break, then the launch in to the virtuosity. It's the preceding material that's different in your case.

I think the 'issue' (which it's not really, because you're happy with it) is the different between the composer, who has heard it hundreds of times before, and the listener. Even to me, it sounded better the second time.

Another possible solution would be to delete the fermata and hold the chord over the rest (maybe with the pedal), then taking out the gap that to me seems a bit awkward.

2 hours ago, Charles Geday said:

I am going to have to disaree with you here. Personally I think the most dramatic register of the piano is the lower one- the Grave at the start of the exposition and of the development (the G minor chord) of the Pathétique sonata springs to mind where the low register makes the chords more heavy and appear to have a thicker texture even though voiced higher up they are the same. A follow-up question: why do you consider the middle register to be the most dramatic?

Let's agree to disagree! I absolutely understand the drama of the lower register, but I think I maybe should have reworded my response a bit (note I said 'intense' rather than 'most intense'). The middle is where all the fullness and weight of texture can be develpoed. Without attempting to rewrite your piece at all, here's a quickly made illustration of what I was meaning. As above, I'm using Bar 21 as an example.

Apologies, the picture's HUGE and I can't see how to change it!

You can see that I've only added in a couple of extra octaves and additional notes to the chords, but it has served both to reduce the gap and increase the bass end. Having said that, since you like it how you have written it, you must keep it as it is. Hopefully, that's helped to clear it up a bit!

Thanks again for your reply - delighted to have a discussion!

3 hours ago, aMusicComposer said:

Thanks for your reply, lots of things to discuss!

(Quick note - I wrote the following out in one go, it's very very wordy! If you want me to explain it again differently just ask)

You know, it's great that you're able to 'defend' the idea as such. The fact that you've thought about it and made a conscious decision means to me that you should keep it as it is. I'm not sure if it can quite be compared to the Winter Wind etude - the Chopin is successful because it opens with that slow, tranquil introduction then launches into the terrifyingly difficult stuff! OTOH, your piece has a full build up to what seems to the listener to be a climax, then has the break, then the launch in to the virtuosity. It's the preceding material that's different in your case.

I think the 'issue' (which it's not really, because you're happy with it) is the different between the composer, who has heard it hundreds of times before, and the listener. Even to me, it sounded better the second time.

Another possible solution would be to delete the fermata and hold the chord over the rest (maybe with the pedal), then taking out the gap that to me seems a bit awkward.

Let's agree to disagree! I absolutely understand the drama of the lower register, but I think I maybe should have reworded my response a bit (note I said 'intense' rather than 'most intense'). The middle is where all the fullness and weight of texture can be develpoed. Without attempting to rewrite your piece at all, here's a quickly made illustration of what I was meaning. As above, I'm using Bar 21 as an example.

Apologies, the picture's HUGE and I can't see how to change it!

You can see that I've only added in a couple of extra octaves and additional notes to the chords, but it has served both to reduce the gap and increase the bass end. Having said that, since you like it how you have written it, you must keep it as it is. Hopefully, that's helped to clear it up a bit!

 

Thanks again for your reply - delighted to have a discussion!

 

Sorry for another late reply (I really am getting good at those). I appreciate all the insight you've given, it has certainly given me some concepts to think about going forward. Speaking of which, I might post my piano concerto on these forums when it is finished this weekend so watch this space!

Have a good weekend!

32 minutes ago, Charles Geday said:

Sorry for another late reply (I really am getting good at those).

I wouldn't call any of these late replies! On this forum, lots of the most active members are in wildly different time zones, you'll have to get used to waiting a day or two or three for a reply...

I'd love to hear your concerto, looking forward to hearing it if you post it (might not have change to review until well into next week though)

G'day, Charles (sigh, bad joke you've heard millions of times)

Welcome to the forums, and congrats on submitting something publicly for the first time. I feel like that's an important step to take as a musician, and one you'll be very grateful for in your growth as a composer. You'll find that there are tons of talented musicians here, and most of their feedback is always a source of free advice.

How long have you played piano? Just curious, as it sounds like you have a bit of experience writing and playing. 

I really like what you have going on here. I think a strength of yours is your harmonic direction. You for the most part always led the chord progression to cool places. I liked the A section a lot, it gave me Phantom of the Opera type vibes. Your voice seems to be very original to me, nothing sounded like Walmart-versions of Mozart or anything (lol). Each of your sections have lots of character too, so kudos on that.

The transition from A to B kind of caught me off guard. You had an interesting thing going on, and then all of a sudden we're in a waltz. But you do a better job with the B section, easing into the Winter Wind kind of part.

Another thing to watch out for is your voicing. The Ab chord in bar 15 sounds bare without the third. You have spots where the right hand chords move parallel in the same position, and inversions might sound better. Bars 41-43 sounded a bit odd because you add voices and take them away suddenly. 

Overall though, great piece! I'm looking forward to hearing new music from you to continue to see how you grow as a composer. Well done, and welcome!

23 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

G'day, Charles (sigh, bad joke you've heard millions of times)

Its gotten to the point where I make that joke myself, that's how many times I've heard it.

40 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

How long have you played piano? Just curious, as it sounds like you have a bit of experience writing and playing. 

September was the start of my 12th year playing and my 6th year writing.

41 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

I liked the A section a lot, it gave me Phantom of the Opera type vibes

I had not thought of that comparison, but yes I see what you mean!

42 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Your voice seems to be very original to me, nothing sounded like Walmart-versions of Mozart or anything (lol). Each of your sections have lots of character too, so kudos on that.

Thank you very much, very kind!

43 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

The transition from A to B kind of caught me off guard. You had an interesting thing going on, and then all of a sudden we're in a waltz. But you do a better job with the B section, easing into the Winter Wind kind of part.

The transition isn't played very well by the sibelius midi-mp3 render, in reality there would be more of a fermata-esque pause and it would be phrased better, but I can see what you mean with the recording I posted and the notation on the score I posted.

50 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Overall though, great piece! I'm looking forward to hearing new music from you to continue to see how you grow as a composer. Well done, and welcome!

Thank you again! I'll be posting my Mini Piano Concerto (perhaps along with some other shorter pieces) on Sunday. I look forward to my time on this forum.

45 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Another thing to watch out for is your voicing. The Ab chord in bar 15 sounds bare without the third. You have spots where the right hand chords move parallel in the same position, and inversions might sound better. Bars 41-43 sounded a bit odd because you add voices and take them away suddenly. 

I know there is more I could've done with voicing in the right hand- I was more focused on the harmonic structure than the melodic one- but it's definitely something for me to pay more attention to with future works.