French Overture in F major ala Bach (complete)

After a lengthy period of time...Here it is! It’s arguably my best composition to date. All comments are welcome, particularly critiques pertaining to the style!

A French overture with 5 voices, followed by an extended “concerto” fugue based on a ritornello theme (bars 39-70). The overture returns at the end with a surprise 🙂

Also attached a fugue diagram, for your interest: https://imgur.com/a/1MYsogG

Congrats on the completed piece!

I love the echoing effect of the repeated opening, really akin to Baroque style and common practice! The voicing is so great even it's a 5-voice overture! Really great job!

For the fugal section, what I love most is the use of ritornello form combined with fugal form. The contrasting episodes of duet and tutti really gives me the feeling of concertino and ripieno, and you combine the form with the concepts of fugal form like subject and episodes!! That for me is really innovative!! The conterpoint is accurate 

The fugue diagram is really well-made! I remember I made one for my 5-part fugue in the 3rd movement of my clarinet quintet, but forgets where do I put it! I should definitely try to make one too!

For the duet section, can the bass joins too? It's always the soprano and alto/tenor and bass is not given a chance to join the concertino section🤣! I wish all three combinations (soprano+alto/tenor), (soprano+bass) and (alto/tenor+bass can appear in the six duet sections! That will make the music even more varied! 

Concerning the fugal technique it's really amazing especially the stretti! But I do think the subject can also appear in augmentation and inversion combined with the prime form. I will try on it to see whether it works.

Overall a really great job and stylish piece! You should be really proud of it!!!!!

Henry

Try a three part stretto with inversion in the bass 😅: (Pls forgive my ugly and messy handwriting...)

Hi @Henry Ng!

I'm very glad you enjoyed the piece! These are some high praises 🙂. I'll talk through my vision for the work - hopefully it will better explain a few of the features here.

Firstly, the overall texture I had in mind is that of an organ's. The initial French overture texture is in particular heavily inspired by BWV 552 ("St Anne" Prelude): heavy-handed voicing, ornamental, seventh chords, 2 & 4 suspensions everywhere. The following fugue remains in the organ texture - it achieves this by making the organ "pedal line" distinct. It offers an alternative view of the duet vs tutti sections as manualiter vs a pleno organo. It explains why the duets occur exclusively in the upper two voices.

I'd also love to claim that the fusion of ritornello and fugal form is innovative...But sadly the master himself has already done it in various major works. Some of the fugues from the Brandenburg Concertos and the Orchestral Suites have hints of ritornello form, but the most explicit examples can be found in his vocal music repertoire. See for example, the opening choruses of BWV 45 or 67 (for an even more complex example, see the opening Kyrie of the Mass in B minor). The overall scheme for these is:

1. Open with a complete ritornello theme (one that is very much like mine) on instruments. The ritornello theme itself must contains a "subject" which is passed a few times across the instruments.

2. The voices now enter procedurally in a fugal exposition using this subject.

3. Restatement of the complete ritornello theme in the dominant key, with the voices doubling instruments.

4. Instrumental interlude.

5. Free continuation. It could be a re-exposition, or wholly new material. Followed by,

6. One or two restatement of the complete ritornello theme. The last statement is in the tonic key and concludes the piece.

I think the most important thing to note from this scheme is that ritornello form forms the basis, not fugue. The presence of fugal material here serves no purpose other than to bridge the ritornello themes. This is exactly the principle I've taken in my overture, though my own scheme differs from these choruses: the opening ritornello theme is skipped entirely, and my approach to restatements of the ritornello theme is that of concerto rather than chorus - the ritornello theme is chopped up instead of being completely restated. Consequently, my focus is on the ritornello theme, and not on contrapuntal techniques such as stretto, augmentation, or inversion. Though stretti can be found, its purpose is to facilitate (either starting or concluding) imitative dialogue in the duet sections using material present already in the ritornello theme. This is why three-part stretto is not present (and why it wasn't even on my shopping list when I began architecting the work)!

The relevant example from literature would be BWV 1066 (Orchestral Suite No. 1). The subject can indeed be placed in stretto, but what Bach chose to do is quite puzzling. He uses stretto extremely sparingly, in seemingly unimportant places, and sometimes played by instruments which are not very audible (the second violins & violas). But if we choose to take the view that Bach's focus is on ritornello theme and not on fugue (and fugal techniques), then it actually makes sense. These stretti are placed right after the conclusion of the trios, and they serve as a way to procedurally, but quickly bring back the strings. Very clever!

Dear @muchen_,

Thank you for your really detailed reply! You are really a Bach expert!

7 minutes ago, muchen_ said:

I think the most important thing to note from this scheme is that ritornello form forms the basis, not fugue.

That's really crucial to the understanding of your marvelous piece. i've perceived your piece since it had been posted in its draft form as a fugal piece with an overture, that's why I keep stating the fugal devices and techniques. But if it's in ritornello form, then it will be perfect! A three-part stretto will not be suitable in your piece. Sorry for my careless misconception though😅!!

9 minutes ago, muchen_ said:

It offers an alternative view of the duet vs tutti sections as manualiter vs a pleno organo. It explains why the duets occur exclusively in the upper two voices.

Now I know why the duets are often in the upper two voices since to play the sound from pedalboard will be quite unmatched with the upper manuals. Thanks for the clarification!

12 minutes ago, muchen_ said:

I'd also love to claim that the fusion of ritornello and fugal form is innovative...But sadly the master himself has already done it in various major works. Some of the fugues from the Brandenburg Concertos and the Orchestral Suites have hints of ritornello form, but the most explicit examples can be found in his vocal music repertoire. See for example, the opening choruses of BWV 45 or 67 (for an even more complex example, see the opening Kyrie of the Mass in B minor).

Look like I am not at all familiar with the master's orchestral work! I am only familiar with his fugal pieces with his Die Kunst der Fuge my favourite, but he is such a master that he can master all the style, not only the learned but also some gallant and dancing one!! Though I perceive his Kyrie of Mass in B minor as a fugal one too, with the opening theme transverse flute as the fugal subject and following the fugal scheme. I find the instrumental interludes as episodes rather than interlude.

30 minutes ago, muchen_ said:

the opening ritornello theme is skipped entirely, and my approach to restatements of the ritornello theme is that of concerto rather than chorus - the ritornello theme is chopped up instead of being completely restated.

Yeah just like the last movement of the Brandenburg Concerto no.5!!

31 minutes ago, muchen_ said:

The relevant example from literature would be BWV 1066 (Orchestral Suite No. 1). The subject can indeed be placed in stretto, but what Bach chose to do is quite puzzling. He uses stretto extremely sparingly, in seemingly unimportant places, and sometimes played by instruments which are not very audible (the second violins & violas). But if we choose to take the view that Bach's focus is on ritornello theme and not on fugue (and fugal techniques), then it actually makes sense. These stretti are placed right after the conclusion of the trios, and they serve as a way to procedurally, but quickly bring back the strings. Very clever!

Your post definitely push me to revisit and analyze his orchestral suites and Brandenburg Concerti! Thank you!

3 hours ago, Henry Ng said:

Though I perceive his Kyrie of Mass in B minor as a fugal one too.

Me too, until I read this peer-reviewed article on its structure. Whereas choruses found in his cantatas generally deviate from the scheme I described earlier somewhat, the Kyrie actually more or less follows it exactly, with an extra 4-bar introduction (point 5 is a re-exposition, 6 is a complete statement in the tonic key). The ritornello is well-hidden because of the seamless transitions between the fugal complexes and the ritornello theme, achieved by continuity of parts, and importantly - displacing structural cadences so they do not align with the actual structure! What's perhaps even more surprising is that the actual ritornello theme - a 6-part magnificent piece of counterpoint - can be reduced down to 3 essential parts. So just a short trio sonata, if you like.

None of this is an effort for me to downplay and to dumb down Bach. I actually find these results - that the vast majority of his works that are incomprehensibly complex on the surface, can be systematically reduced down to simple musical ideas - to be comforting as an amateur composer 🙂

17 minutes ago, muchen_ said:

Me too, until I read this peer-reviewed article on its structure.

Thank you for sharing! Will definitely take a look of it and re-listen the Kyrie. The website seems like a great resource on Bach's music!!

After reading the essay I really love the notion of "hidden ritornello". The term "ritornello" is used because the materials for the three ritornelli are the same except the second one in the dominant of F sharp minor. That's a really interesting perspective. For me I still view the Kyrie as a fugal piece but the subject doesn't appear as frequent as the normal fugues. For me in a typical ritornello movement the alternation of ritornello theme and tutti theme come much quicker and the themes tend to be shorter, while here the sections are quite long and the number of alternations is not much. But the term "hidden ritornello" is really attractive to use.

That makes me remember his 6 part ricercar in his Musical Offering. In there fugue subject is used as a structural reference point, rather than the main theme in a fugue. The subject appears 12 times, first appears 6 times in each of the voice in the exposition, or the "fugal complex", then appears once in each of the voice: G minor in tenor, F minor in alto I, E flat major in sporano I, B flat minor in alto II, G minor in soprano II, and finally C minor in bass at the very end. Here in the Kyrie the fugal complex appears two times, and sections between them have occasional subject apperance as structural reference, as well as episodes using the fugal materials. I remember in the Kyrie of Mozart's Requiem, there's also an immediate "real answer" fifth above after the initial theme apperance, but later the fugal device is dropped.

But the structure provided by the author is so appealing. It definitely fits with a hidden ritornello scheme! I myself is confused about that too. Maybe I should just treat it as a combination of ritornello form and fugue, just as the concerto sonata form (or the type 5 sonata in the sonata theory) as a combination of ritornello form and sonata form.

Thank you so much for your sharing and recommendation of the essay!

34 minutes ago, Henry Ng said:

After reading the essay I really love the notion of "hidden ritornello". The term "ritornello" is used because the materials for the three ritornelli are the same except the second one in the dominant of F sharp minor. That's a really interesting perspective. For me I still view the Kyrie as a fugal piece but the subject doesn't appear as frequent as the normal fugues. For me in a typical ritornello movement the alternation of ritornello theme and tutti theme come much quicker and the themes tend to be shorter, while here the sections are quite long and the number of alternations is not much. But the term "hidden ritornello" is really attractive to use.

That makes me remember his 6 part ricercar in his Musical Offering. In there fugue subject is used as a structural reference point, rather than the main theme in a fugue. The subject appears 12 times, first appears 6 times in each of the voice in the exposition, or the "fugal complex", then appears once in each of the voice: G minor in tenor, F minor in alto I, E flat major in sporano I, B flat minor in alto II, G minor in soprano II, and finally C minor in bass at the very end. Here in the Kyrie the fugal complex appears two times, and sections between them have occasional subject apperance as structural reference, as well as episodes using the fugal materials. I remember in the Kyrie of Mozart's Requiem, there's also an immediate "real answer" fifth above after the initial theme apperance, but later the fugal device is dropped.

But the structure provided by the author is so appealing. It definitely fits with a hidden ritornello scheme! I myself is confused about that too. Maybe I should just treat it as a combination of ritornello form and fugue, just as the concerto sonata form (or the type 5 sonata in the sonata theory) as a combination of ritornello form and sonata form.

Thank you so much for your sharing and recommendation of the essay!

I agree with you that the term "ritornello form" used in this context is very puzzling! We're all used to the Baroque concerto form and the Kyrie "ritornello", in addition to how it's used (literally just reused twice in its entirety with minimal modification) defies all expectations.

It's however possible to trace the evolution from a concerto to a "ritornello form" choral fugue. Normally, the arias and choruses develop very much like a concerto, with the ritornello theme fragmented and thrown around across the voice(s) and instruments. A fairly common feature however, is that the complete ritornello theme is restated some time later (an aside: one of the trademarks of mid-late Bach vocal writing is when he chooses explicitly to not do this in the arias). In the choruses this restatement is also sometimes carried by the voices. Now, in a "ritornello form" choral fugue (the two examples I've listed above), all of the usual action of playing around with the ritornello theme is mostly "replaced" by fugal exposition (inverted commas here, since you can alternatively view the fugal exposition as all of the usual action of playing around with fragments of the ritornello theme, but presented in a highly ordered manner). What's left are the ritornello theme restatements. This would explain the assignment of the term "ritornello form" to these type of pieces.

Indeed, the ritornello principle appears all over the place in Bach's music, sometimes in highly disguised/modified forms!

It is also interesting that sonata form (esp. type 2 sonata form) basically evolved from the ritornello form. In the six stages of ritornello form, stage 1 becomes the first subject of the exposition, stage 2 becomes the second subject area that normally rest on dominant. Stage 3 becomes the dominant version of the 1st subject stated at the beginning of the development section, stage 4 free development of other materials, stage 5 the 2nd subject in tonic key, and stage 6 the compensation of the 1st subject in tonic key as the coda.

I am almost done revising the whole suite. Below I've attached what (hopefully) can be considered the final version of this overture!

Much of the editing has been done for harmonic and playability reasons. It's nowhere as perfectly playable as Bach's 6-part ricercar, but I think it's a vast improvement from the previous edition.