Symphonic Overture No. 2

This was my entry for the National Young Composers Challenge. I did not end up winning, but the judges enjoyed it, particularly the introduction. I will definitely be participating again for next year.

This was also my first test of the new MuseSounds, and I am very excited about it. I was quite impressed with the realism of it, though I don't really like the trumpet all that much, as the dynamics are inconsistent.

Feedback is definitely appreciated, especially since I am planning on expanding the material into a full symphony.

Here it is with the old soundfonts I used. (There is a timpani in the end which I later removed.)

No doubt the judges love the introduction. It's really spacious and full of timberal and dynamic contrast. It really reminds me the introduction of Beethoven Symphony no. 2..Even the opening chord is masterful with instruments holding longer or shorter. I absolutely love the cor anglais melody. I just think the flute lead up in b.13 can be changed to a dotted rhythm to be slightly less static. The climax is gigantic, I love the underlying tremolos and the balance is great.

I find the fast section less convincing than the other two slow sections. First is the overall unbalance of the three part structure. The middle fast section is too short to create contrast and provide reason for the tonic major major transformantion of the next section. I guess it's due to time limit of the competition, so that's not a problem. Also, the melody by Violin II and viola is overwhelmed bt the trombones. I think cello, double bass, clarinet and bassoon can add in to counterbalance too, since I see the flute joins when violin I plays. The build up to that dim.7 chord is so amazing with that dactyllic rhythm! Really great job here.

Section F provides good contrast and transition as well. I love the warm horn after a catastrophe. Section G is great as well. I just find the A-A sharp tone clash a little bit direct sincd they are in the same register. In b.82-83, can the cor anglais change that quickly to an oboe? I think some rests are needed for the oboist to change instrument. But the texture here is so great: melody, countermelody, accompaniment, typical symphonic sound. That running of violin in b.86 reminds me Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, and the triplets of low strings are used greatly. I absolutely love the minor seventh chord used in this section as well as the chord D-G-A-E in b.94. Nice ending as well!

Overall a marvellous work! Your orchestral usage is great and I really would like you to expand this overture, especially the middle section in your later expansion. Thanks for sharing this great work here, Jonathon! Really appreciate that!

Henry

8 minutes ago, Henry Ng said:

No doubt the judges love the introduction. It's really spacious and full of timberal and dynamic contrast. It really reminds me the introduction of Beethoven Symphony no. 2..Even the opening chord is masterful with instruments holding longer or shorter. I absolutely love the cor anglais melody. I just think the flute lead up in b.13 can be changed to a dotted rhythm to be slightly less static. The climax is gigantic, I love the underlying tremolos and the balance is great.

I find the fast section less convincing than the other two slow sections. First is the overall unbalance of the three part structure. The middle fast section is too short to create contrast and provide reason for the tonic major major transformantion of the next section. I guess it's due to time limit of the competition, so that's not a problem. Also, the melody by Violin II and viola is overwhelmed bt the trombones. I think cello, double bass, clarinet and bassoon can add in to counterbalance too, since I see the flute joins when violin I plays. The build up to that dim.7 chord is so amazing with that dactyllic rhythm! Really great job here.

Section F provides good contrast and transition as well. I love the warm horn after a catastrophe. Section G is great as well. I just find the A-A sharo tone clash a little bit direct sincd they are in the same register. In b.82-83, can the cor anglais change that quickly to an oboe? I think some rests are needed for the oboist to change instrument. But the texture here is so great: melody, countermelody, accompaniment, typical symphonic sound. That running of violin in b.86 reminds me Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, and the triplets of low strings are used greatly. I absolutely love the minor seventh chord used in this section as well as the chord D-G-A-E in b.94. Nice ending as well!

Overall a marvellous work! Your orchestral usage is great and I really would like you to expand this overture, especially the middle section. Thanks for sharing this great work here, Jonathon! Really appreciate that!

Henry

 

Thank you so much for the kind words. The judges had some of the same criticisms with the furioso section being too short creating imbalance and also the dissonance with some instruments in the same register resolving at different times. I will definitely try putting the flute in a dotted rhythm, I think it will work well. Regarding the english horn to oboe, the competition specified that the english horn is played by the second oboist, so there is no issue there.

22 minutes ago, ComposaBoi said:

Thank you so much for the kind words. The judges had some of the same criticisms with the furioso section being too short creating imbalance and also the dissonance with some instruments in the same register resolving at different times.

I am happy too! Look like my listening skill is ok😝!

24 minutes ago, ComposaBoi said:

s. I will definitely try putting the flute in a dotted rhythm, I think it will work well

That's just my preference but I find that passage not slow enough for a flute to be playing static notes.

25 minutes ago, ComposaBoi said:

Regarding the english horn to oboe, the competition specified that the english horn is played by the second oboist, so there is no issue there.

Then that's really fine!

Wow, this is really beautiful music. 

A couple quick notes before I get into it:

-make sure the double basses have a C extension for measure 5

-I liked the sustained flute notes in the introduction. What if you had continuous lines for them and they alternated when to breathe?

-Pizz notes were very hard to hear starting at bar 66, but that could be because of the transition to the better samples

-I would have tried to do something a bit different than having all the low string playing triplets, but eh that's just me and a preference thing

Now, onto the music. I absolutely LOVE the harmony you create. There were several moments the chords fell onto a diminished chord, or the subtle rising chromatic parts, that really pulled my heart strings. I normally listen to a piece several times while commenting, but found myself wanting to hear this one again and again because I like it so much.

Yeah, the middle fast section seemed a bit abrupt, but it was really cool. It sounds like you were under a time constraint? Regardless, if your plan is to expand this one into a larger symphonic work, I would for sure elongate that entire section. You have plenty of material to craft really cool motifs from the string lines, just give them a bit of rhythm and a cadence so you can really toy around with it. If it were me, I'd keep the first introduction section as is (really great English horn stuff there), and develop the crap out of the middle section. Maybe make that your main theme, or possibly even get two themes out of it for a sonata-allegro form. Dunno, the gears were turning listening to this piece. You could even have your return to the slower adagio material be a brief interlude before going back to some faster moments for a recapitulation. 

Ooh, ooh, what if you made the English horn as a feature for the introduction and slower return, really highlighting how beautiful the solo lines you gave it are? (I just really like the instrument 😄) 

Another idea I had would be an extended use of the percussion. I know you're going for the classical orchestra type of vibe, but the timpani was a part where I thought you could explore more as you develop this piece. Even giving it rhythms and ostinatos during the fast section would be cool. It's just too much I hear it used as if Beethoven were using it. But a LOT of rhythmic exploration and development has happened since his time, I think it would be cool if you explored some of it's possibilities. Some of Shostakovich's music comes to mind as I type this, kind of a classical yet modern take on it (at least for his day, who knows what you could come up with!)

Obviously this all depends on what you're going for, these were just some thoughts that came to mind as I listened. I really like all the slower romantic sections, some of the solo melodies you created were wonderful, and your use of harmony was very touching. Keep us all updated on how this one turns out, I'm eager to hear it 🙂

Wow, the first part is convincingly dramatic. The transition into the furioso part is perfect, and in this part, the entries of the basses are wonderful.

Nice contrast that makes the adagio and the resurgence afterwords. 

I'd like to remark the melody.

Great work.

Ok, right off the bat, this piece is quite good. I love the melodies you present here, their very beautiful and the harmony underneath compliments that. I don't hav emuch else to say on the composition, but I have a couple of points regarding the score:

• Firstly, is the Adagio Maestoso above the strings(Bar One) really necessary? You've already got a tempo marking at the top of the score, and as far as I'm aware that should be sufficient.
•  Secondly, what do you mean by "To Oboe" above the English Horn part at Bar 16. Is it an Oboe Cue or something?

Anyways, great job on this piece. I look forward to hearing more of your work.

Kind regards,

Arjuna (Archie)

32 minutes ago, expert21 said:

Firstly, is the Adagio Maestoso above the strings(Bar One) really necessary? You've already got a tempo marking at the top of the score, and as far as I'm aware that should be sufficient.

That is a common practice for romantic orchestral scores, which I would have expected you to know that since it happens in Tchaikovsky scores and your profile picture is of Tchaikovsky. Also, the judges had specific things for the score they wanted, for example every fifth measure being marked, which I normally don’t do. I personally only include a second tempo marking above the strings or percussion if their are an especially large number of instruments on that page.

37 minutes ago, expert21 said:

• Secondly, what do you mean by "To Oboe" above the English Horn part at Bar 16. Is it an Oboe Cue or something?

 

Oboe 2 switches between an english horn and oboe and so it is to tell the second oboist to change from english horn to oboe. This may not be the standard way of doing this, it’s just what my program did.

I will note that I specified that the 2nd oboe doubles english horn on the old first page, which I got rid of when posting here since it included my full name and home city.

Thank you for the feedback and merry Christmas!

Quote

That is a common practice for romantic orchestral scores, which I would have expected you to know that since it happens in Tchaikovsky scores and your profile picture is of Tchaikovsky. Also, the judges had specific things for the score they wanted, for example every fifth measure being marked, which I normally don’t do. I personally only include a second tempo marking above the strings or percussion if their are an especially large number of instruments on that page.

Ah, ok. I didn't know that as I haven't studied many original Romantic era scores.

• The English horn appears to be written in the wrong key signature at the beginning. Since it is a transposing instrument in F in should be written in A minor, not D minor. Interestingly enough, the written pitches are transposed correctly (the written G sounds like a C). I think maybe Musescore is not accounting for the instrument change properly? The same thing happens thing happens when you switch back to the Oboe at m83 - the oboe should be written in D major.
• Is there any reason you left the horns out of the fast sixteenth notes in the Allegro section? I think if they played with the trumpets it might fill out the sound more.
• I think the bass trombone might have trouble tonguing that fast on the G in the Allegro section, since it’s somewhat of a low note, especially at a ff dynamic. Can any trombone players confirm?
• On the sixteenth note runs in the Allegro section, I noticed Vln II is playing continuously. Maybe give some of their lines to the cello (m46-47, m50-51 for example) so they have time to rest?
• I think the orchestration at H is a little light. It’s a really big moment, and I don’t think there is enough harmonic support underneath the melody. What I might do is give the clarinet part to the horns (since they’re currently not playing), then have the clarinets double the oboes. The horns will provide a much more solid harmonic backbone, and the clarinets will give more woodwind color to the string melody.

5 minutes ago, gmm said:

I think maybe Musescore is not accounting for the instrument change properly?

This is indeed true. I assumed it would do that automatically and didn’t even bother to check.

7 minutes ago, gmm said:

Is there any reason you left the horns out of the fast sixteenth notes in the Allegro section? I think if they played with the trumpets it might fill out the sound more.

I originally had it with the horns but I thought that it would overpower the strings to much. Maybe it wouldn’t, but that was my thought.

9 minutes ago, gmm said:

I think the bass trombone might have trouble tonguing that fast on the G in the Allegro section, since it’s somewhat of a low note, especially at a ff dynamic. Can any trombone players confirm?

That sounds right. I might just simplify the rhythm for the bass trombone the whole way through that section.

14 minutes ago, gmm said:

On the sixteenth note runs in the Allegro section, I noticed Vln II is playing continuously. Maybe give some of their lines to the cello (m46-47, m50-51 for example) so they have time to rest?

OK. I’ll try different mixings of the strings there and see what works best. Maybe violins I with cellos and violins II with violas. We’ll see What I do:

19 minutes ago, gmm said:

What I might do is give the clarinet part to the horns (since they’re currently not playing), then have the clarinets double the oboes. The horns will provide a much more solid harmonic backbone, and the clarinets will give more woodwind color to the string melody.

I’ll definitely try this out. Looks like it would work quite well, thanks. 😊