Fantasy Two (orchestral WIP): next steps?

Przyjazna - Fantasy Two.pdf

Hello all,

I thought I would share my sketches of a new orchestral work, so called "Fantasy Two" for the time being, after an older work of mine titled "Fantasy" that I feel it bears similarities to.

I wrote the section in the second audio file before the first, but I would like to fit it somewhere in the middle of the piece if it isn't tedious. I have definitely not polished the dynamics yet and could refine my harmonies.

Any feedback on what I have so far and suggestions on what direction to take this piece in would be greatly appreciated -- I am a bit stuck. One concern I have is that I might be building too much tension and emotion too quickly. Would you agree?

Thank you!

~ Gwendolyn (formerly MissCello)

Hi Gwendolyn,

I find both parts very promising. I love how you use the timbre of woodwind so well especially that of part 1. Very nice bassoon introduction and great wind writing. Part 2 is great as well with its generally thicker texture.

6 minutes ago, Gwendolyn Przyjazna said:

One concern I have is that I might be building too much tension and emotion too quickly.

I actually don't think the tension built too quickly in both parts. After all in part 1 the strings only appear in pizzicato and never play the melody, and there's no bombardment of brass! But I don't know how long you are going for this piece, but at least for now it's perfectly fine for me!

8 minutes ago, Gwendolyn Przyjazna said:

I would greatly appreciate any feedback on what I have so far and suggestions on what direction to take this piece in -- I am a bit stuck.

For part 1 I see the melody only played by the winds. Will you transfer it to strings? Maybe use that same kind of treatment as in the winds: Cello introduce the theme first, probably in high register, then viola and violin. The interval of fourth is very important in your melody. Will you take that into further development?

For part 2 the strings can definitely join in later passages!

I really enjoy the vibraphone. Will you give it a solo too?

For me both parts are just in the introduction part, or the introduction of theme and motive. I think you can transfer the melody to different orchestral colour, then decide what to develop.

Henry

1 hour ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Hi Gwendolyn,

I find both parts very promising. I love how you use the timbre of woodwind so well especially that of part 1. Very nice bassoon introduction and great wind writing. Part 2 is great as well with its generally thicker texture.

I actually don't think the tension built too quickly in both parts. After all in part 1 the strings only appear in pizzicato and never play the melody, and there's no bombardment of brass! But I don't know how long you are going for this piece, but at least for now it's perfectly fine for me!

For part 1 I see the melody only played by the winds. Will you transfer it to strings? Maybe use that same kind of treatment as in the winds: Cello introduce the theme first, probably in high register, then viola and violin. The interval of fourth is very important in your melody. Will you take that into further development?

For part 2 the strings can definitely join in later passages!

I really enjoy the vibraphone. Will you give it a solo too?

For me both parts are just in the introduction part, or the introduction of theme and motive. I think you can transfer the melody to different orchestral colour, then decide what to develop.

Henry

 

Henry,

Thank you so much! I like your idea about continuing with the cello, especially since it is already arco at bar 18. A smooth transition should be easy. I should definitely give the strings a role in part 2 as well.

I'm so glad you like the vibraphone. I have not really heard the combination of vibraphone and tambourine before, but I thought, why not. I can certainly give it a solo. Do you play or know something about that instrument? I don't know much, honestly.

I appreciate your thoughtful feedback as always!

 

15 minutes ago, Gwendolyn Przyjazna said:

especially since it is already arco at bar 18.

Oh I miss that! But at least it does not carry the main melody!😅

15 minutes ago, Gwendolyn Przyjazna said:

I have not really heard the combination of vibraphone and tambourine before, but I thought, why not. I can certainly give it a solo.

Actually I find this combination fresh. The vibraphone provides something mystic and tambourine for me is like the guide from somewhere distant. 

15 minutes ago, Gwendolyn Przyjazna said:

Do you play or know something about that instrument? I don't know much, honestly.

I am sorry I cannot give you information on that, since I am an even poorer orchestraionist than you!! But there're definitely some guys great on that here!

Hi again, Gwendolyn.

3 hours ago, Gwendolyn Przyjazna said:

One concern I have is that I might be building too much tension and emotion too quickly. Would you agree?

Depends, if these are just sketches, that is, they are going to be extended and not only complemented with a third work, there should be no problem building tension as long as you know what prominence you want it to have. In the full orchestral piece you could alternate periods of tension with periods of relative "comfort" but increasing the tension in each "cycle". Something like this:


Some more details and opinions:
• The first ~15 seconds on the second part do a good job as an "opening" theme, they sound expansive to me.
• After listening a couple of times, I do not really think building tension too quickly be the problem if there's any. Do you want to build a theme based on a continuous flow of tension? Do you want rests, balance? Having the structure clear is key in this case (and very often I'd say, it always helps). Do you conceive this as a single movement work? In other words, no long rests and/or thematic splitting? Do you think there's something else that —apart from the general "mood" both pieces may transmit and the, likely, tonality sharing since both pieces go to F right after the beginning or in the very beginning— Is there any further specific connection between these works? Too many questions perhaps?
• Despite agreeing with ma buddy here @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu on the thicker texture of the Fantasy two, I consider the first one texture more elaborate and potentially better, as well as more emotionally charged. However, this is likely a consequence from my said judgement and preference of the 1st over the 2nd. 

As always, thank you for sharing.

Kind regards,
Daniel–Ømicrón.

 

15 hours ago, Omicronrg9 said:

Hi again, Gwendolyn.

 

Depends, if these are just sketches, that is, they are going to be extended and not only complemented with a third work, there should be no problem building tension as long as you know what prominence you want it to have. In the full orchestral piece you could alternate periods of tension with periods of relative "comfort" but increasing the tension in each "cycle". Something like this:


Some more details and opinions:
• The first ~15 seconds on the second part do a good job as an "opening" theme, they sound expansive to me.
• After listening a couple of times, I do not really think building tension too quickly be the problem if there's any. Do you want to build a theme based on a continuous flow of tension? Do you want rests, balance? Having the structure clear is key in this case (and very often I'd say, it always helps). Do you conceive this as a single movement work? In other words, no long rests and/or thematic splitting? Do you think there's something else that —apart from the general "mood" both pieces may transmit and the, likely, tonality sharing since both pieces go to F right after the beginning or in the very beginning— Is there any further specific connection between these works? Too many questions perhaps?
• Despite agreeing with ma buddy here @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu on the thicker texture of the Fantasy two, I consider the first one texture more elaborate and potentially better, as well as more emotionally charged. However, this is likely a consequence from my said judgement and preference of the 1st over the 2nd. 

As always, thank you for sharing.

Kind regards,
Daniel–Ømicrón.

 

 

Hi @Omicronrg9,

Not too many questions at all, they're helping a lot. Yes, I intend to write a single movement work. Besides what you've named, I don't see any thematic connection between my two sketches, at least, so I could turn the second part into a contrasting section, some respite from the tension if I thin out the texture and simplify the harmonies. Something to go in the troughs of the graph, perhaps.

Thank you for listening and for your input! 🙂

Well, a couple of things come to mind when I hear these. 

For one, I feel like you don't have enough material "mapped out". For instance, do you know all of the themes you'll be using? Or the chord progression? With a lot of the multi-instrumental music I write, I generally have an idea of where I want to go because I know I'm trying to go from say an A theme to a B theme. Then the fun part is discovering how you'll get there. It also helps to figure out a rough idea of what form you're going for too. Even if it's some kind of improvisational fantasy type thing, knowing your main sections will help you. 

The piano helps me as well. Even though I'm a guitarist, playing piano and tinkering with ideas on it is vital to my process, as I'm at least able to play block chords with a melody to get a sense of the mold I'm shaping the music from. 

As far as your music is concerned, I'm surprised you got stuck. The first movement was flowing nicely, and when the strings and percussion came in you played your main theme, but then it sort of trailed off. I'd continue to develop that theme, using all the basic techniques (expansion, compression, yada yada). Really toy around with the material of your theme before thinking of new ideas. That's one of the hard parts of writing for orchestra; if you don't know how to really milk your material and squeeze every last ounce out of it, it's easy to get lost in playing around with orchestral color, just tossing the same ideas to other instruments and calling it a day. 

The second piece was a bit harder for me to grasp, as it seemed like it belongs in the middle of your piece somewhere. If I were you, I would focus on the first one, really make a note of the material you're trying to develop, work out some chords that sound good to you as possibly a harmonic theme, and go from there. You could even continue writing this out as a piano reduction, and once you're ready, you get to have loads of fun orchestrating it.

One of my favorite things on YC is to hear an incomplete work become polished and finished. I'm excited to hear how you develop this piece, keep us all updated with your progress!

18 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Well, a couple of things come to mind when I hear these. 

For one, I feel like you don't have enough material "mapped out". For instance, do you know all of the themes you'll be using? Or the chord progression? With a lot of the multi-instrumental music I write, I generally have an idea of where I want to go because I know I'm trying to go from say an A theme to a B theme. Then the fun part is discovering how you'll get there. It also helps to figure out a rough idea of what form you're going for too. Even if it's some kind of improvisational fantasy type thing, knowing your main sections will help you. 

The piano helps me as well. Even though I'm a guitarist, playing piano and tinkering with ideas on it is vital to my process, as I'm at least able to play block chords with a melody to get a sense of the mold I'm shaping the music from. 

As far as your music is concerned, I'm surprised you got stuck. The first movement was flowing nicely, and when the strings and percussion came in you played your main theme, but then it sort of trailed off. I'd continue to develop that theme, using all the basic techniques (expansion, compression, yada yada). Really toy around with the material of your theme before thinking of new ideas. That's one of the hard parts of writing for orchestra; if you don't know how to really milk your material and squeeze every last ounce out of it, it's easy to get lost in playing around with orchestral color, just tossing the same ideas to other instruments and calling it a day. 

The second piece was a bit harder for me to grasp, as it seemed like it belongs in the middle of your piece somewhere. If I were you, I would focus on the first one, really make a note of the material you're trying to develop, work out some chords that sound good to you as possibly a harmonic theme, and go from there. You could even continue writing this out as a piano reduction, and once you're ready, you get to have loads of fun orchestrating it.

One of my favorite things on YC is to hear an incomplete work become polished and finished. I'm excited to hear how you develop this piece, keep us all updated with your progress!

 

Thank you for listening! I will take your advice to heart. I hadn't considered a piano reduction before. I could even simplify it further and play it on the guitar, which would force me to leave complicated harmonic color and embellishments for later and I would be able to focus on the formal bare bones, if I understand your point correctly. 🙂

I'm pleased to hear your perspective as always!

~ Gwendolyn

 

3 minutes ago, Gwendolyn Przyjazna said:

formal bare bones

funny you say that.

I always think of composing as if I were creating a person. I wouldn't start with the head, adding eyes ears and hair, scars on the skin. I would create the skeleton, then the muscles, etc. 

probably kinda weird analogy lol

57 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

I always think of composing as if I were creating a person. I wouldn't start with the head, adding eyes ears and hair, scars on the skin. I would create the skeleton, then the muscles, etc. 

Actually not! I always think I am a mother creating a baby when composing, but it's more involuntary than your compositional method since I quite rely on inspirations. You cannot control how your baby look like before giving birth to the baby, which for me is the realization of the idea and write it down. After that I can polish it, extend it etc.