Symphony no.8, 4th movement

Hello all,

I am new here in the forum. I am 25, live in Bonn (Germany) and am a computer scientist by profession.
I've been composing for a few years and have already written many works. I play piano since I was 8 years old and also a little organ and clarinet. Everything I know about composing, however, I have acquired myself and has come about through a lot of practice. Unfortunately, I never had composition lessons, so I still make some mistakes, for example, in notation, form theory, etc.  

I compose mainly large orchestrated works and always strive to raise my technical standards and write more complex pieces.

The movement is the final movement of my 8th symphony and contains both quiet passages and more moving ones. The movement reflects well my preference for romantic harmonies.
The movement itself is quite free and does not follow a main motive (although there are recurring structures). It's very long I know but I would really appreciate your opinion.

Also, please give me constructive criticism and especially suggestions on how I could improve further.

About the instrumentation:

Woodwinds:
2 flutes
2 Alto Flutes
2 Bass Flutes
2 oboes
1 English Horn
2 Clarinets in Bb
2 bassoons
1 Contrabassoon

Brass:
4 French horns in F
1 trumpet
4 trombones
1 bass tuba

percussion instruments
Timpani
tubular bells

Strings:
1st violins (14)
2nd violins (10)
violas (8)
Cellos (8)
Double basses (8)

Symphony 8, Mov. 4 Finale.pdf

Here the Soundcloud link: 

Greetings

Nico

Hello @Schorninator,

Welcome to the forum! What a great first post this is! I enjoy it very much!

The harmonic language throughout is very refreshing. You make use of the pentatonic and modal harmony very well as they create a wide horizon for the movement! Your orchestration is very mature for me as well! The overall sound is very beautiful for me especially you add so many details in it!

11 hours ago, Schorninator said:

The movement itself is quite free and does not follow a main motive (although there are recurring structures). It's very long I know but I would really appreciate your opinion.

For me this movement is like a compilation of many beautiful scenes and pictures. They are very beautiful in themselves but they sometimes lack connections and coherence. The overall drama of the piece is thus weakened. It's quite hard for me to follow the structure of the movement actually. Would you explain or disclose the structure of the movement to us?

Your engraving and details are great! The score is very clear with its dynamic markings and phrasing. Beware of the a2, tutti and divisi markings though when they are needed!

11 hours ago, Schorninator said:

Everything I know about composing, however, I have acquired myself and has come about through a lot of practice. Unfortunately, I never had composition lessons, so I still make some mistakes, for example, in notation, form theory, etc.  

Looks like you do have a lot of practice! It will be great to have composition lessons but it's not a must, since it will depend on how you interact well with the instructor and everyone has their own distinctive learning process and method. Listening to the Masters' works and reading music books by yourself can be as good as having someone instructing you! Plus there are so many videos right now. You can check this post on the great Youtube channels on music:

https://www.youngcomposers.com/t43959/youtube-channels

Please feel free to lurk around the forum and listen to other talented members' posts too! I'm sure you will learn much by this! Thanks for sharing your great work here Nico!

Henry

Thank you Henry,

I am very pleased that you liked the sound. 
But thanks also for the other feedback. In fact, I am often a little bothered by the fact that my pieces from time to time are not always coherent and some passages do not fit perfectly together. I still have difficulties to make my pieces more consistent. However, this piece is already about a year old and I am working on this problem.

In the meantime I have written a few pieces in which the inner coherence is better recognizable. I will upload them soon.

And yes, I think also think practice brings the most. I spend a lot of time composing and thinking up new things. 

Thanks for your feedback!
Nico

On 3/9/2023 at 12:23 AM, Schorninator said:

In fact, I am often a little bothered by the fact that my pieces from time to time are not always coherent and some passages do not fit perfectly together. I still have difficulties to make my pieces more consistent. However, this piece is already about a year old and I am working on this problem.

Maybe whem you complete some sections, you can make note of the motives and themes you use and try to let them reappear later! That's sometimes my method on composing to make the music more coherent!

On 3/9/2023 at 12:23 AM, Schorninator said:

In the meantime I have written a few pieces in which the inner coherence is better recognizable. I will upload them soon.

And yes, I think also think practice brings the most. I spend a lot of time composing and thinking up new things. 

Yes to write things out will definitely help you improve more than reading dozens of theory books and listening to dozens pieces of music! I am looking forward to your new posts here Nico!

Henry

On 3/11/2023 at 1:58 PM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Maybe whem you complete some sections, you can make note of the motives and themes you use and try to let them reappear later! That's sometimes my method on composing to make the music more coherent!

That is a great hint I'll definitly give that a try! 

On 3/11/2023 at 1:58 PM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Yes to write things out will definitely help you improve more than reading dozens of theory books and listening to dozens pieces of music! I am looking forward to your new posts here Nico!

Thanks 🙂 I'll upload something new soon.

Nico

On 3/7/2023 at 6:35 PM, Schorninator said:

Hello all,

I am new here in the forum. I am 25, live in Bonn (Germany) and am a computer scientist by profession.
I've been composing for a few years and have already written many works. I play piano since I was 8 years old and also a little organ and clarinet. Everything I know about composing, however, I have acquired myself and has come about through a lot of practice. Unfortunately, I never had composition lessons, so I still make some mistakes, for example, in notation, form theory, etc.  

I compose mainly large orchestrated works and always strive to raise my technical standards and write more complex pieces.

The movement is the final movement of my 8th symphony and contains both quiet passages and more moving ones. The movement reflects well my preference for romantic harmonies.
The movement itself is quite free and does not follow a main motive (although there are recurring structures). It's very long I know but I would really appreciate your opinion.

Also, please give me constructive criticism and especially suggestions on how I could improve further.

About the instrumentation:

Woodwinds:
2 flutes
2 Alto Flutes
2 Bass Flutes
2 oboes
1 English Horn
2 Clarinets in Bb
2 bassoons
1 Contrabassoon

Brass:
4 French horns in F
1 trumpet
4 trombones
1 bass tuba

percussion instruments
Timpani
tubular bells

Strings:
1st violins (14)
2nd violins (10)
violas (8)
Cellos (8)
Double basses (8)

Symphony 8, Mov. 4 Finale.pdf 433.36 kB · 17 downloads

Here the Soundcloud link: 

Greetings

Nico

PDF

• Symphony 8, Mov. 4 Finale

Hello, Welcome !

I'm a little new, like you, but I'm twice your age...

So congratulations first of all, because everything I hear here is of great mastery.

I will write my comments as I listen: 

During my listening:

The opening is fluid and natural. You create the initial wait, before bringing in the mysterious and animated aspect. The instrumentation is faithful to the necessities. Well organized. The climax seems to announce a bit like in the GureLieder of Schönberg, with these small bird songs.

Beautiful modulation around 4.30 that was long in coming.

I like the overlay hung on the pedal around 5.10. Very well imagined (a kind of modulating harmony that I call "by overflow"). Superb Ravellian progression towards 6'10. All this is very French say so!... Haha.

Trumpet solo well in his place. and lyricism that follows really makes you think of the end of "ma mère l'oie".

Arrival of a more chopped episode.

Then rest around 8'14. Once again, ravelian progression. Well done bravo. The orchestral expansion towards the treble is great. Superb harmonic progression again! Around 10' and well fell back on the oboe solo. (hello Ravel)... (a little Canteloube side too, I don't know if you know, his melodies for voice and orchestra are fantastic).

New phase a little more moving with the string tremolos around 12. We feel the energies gathering towards the end. Suspens.. How are you going to bring the final bouquet? I’m waiting...He arrives by a very well written appeasement. Denier trumpet solo, to the unknown soldier. the cinema is not far away.

After my listening:

All this is very well done. You have a very natural flow and we spend a quarter of an hour listening to all this without seeing the time go by.

The rhapsodic side is close to a continuous improvisation, which lets you spare suspended phases where the motifs are expressed very well.

And what I particularly like about your writing is a very personal harmonization, a little by overflow, with progressions (for example towards 8), it is a huge strong point of your language in my opinion.

Two small things perhaps to consider for a fairly long piece (they are general remarks and I also apply these criticisms to myself, so don't see any negative judgment):

- The driving aspect of the orchestra. The orchestra is a big machine that can become static. It always seems important to me to try to find elements that give direction, which can be simple motives, counterpoint, ostinatos, tremolo, or various other means. They are not necessarily necessary, but can precisely guide towards more movement, become a bit like fuel.

- The thematic or motivic emergence. Work on a long form is also the place of work on the auditor's memory. It is then very interesting to use a form of thematic construction, which can also be reduced to simple motifs (then an embryonic theme). This activates sometimes unconscious areas of the listener and can act as benchmarks. See how important it is in the great symphonists ( Mahler's themes are epic, childish, tragic characters, who engage whole through colossal movements, in Bruckner, they are not necessarily melodic themes but rather truncated motifs that stack and function a little systematically like harmonic marches, in Sibélius, the motifs seem like micro organisms, then suddenly emerges THE great theme That takes away just like a basalt river

In any case, bravissimo, it's great to listen to all this. Long live this forum!

Hello again Krisp,

I must say here once; what a great comment.
Not only because of the really kind compliments (which I'm really happy about) but because of the enormous effort you put in.
Lots of technical detail (I especially like this as I am in the process of learning), vivid comparisons and extremely well worded descriptions. I enjoyed every word.

Even though you complimented me a lot and I am of course very happy about that (who wouldn't be), I am always very open to criticism and suggestions for improvement and I welcome your general help at the end of your comment.

7 hours ago, Krisp said:

[...]

"New phase a little more moving with the string tremolos around 12. We feel the energies gathering towards the end. Suspens.. How are you going to bring the final bouquet? I’m waiting...He arrives by a very well written appeasement. Denier trumpet solo, to the unknown soldier. the cinema is not far away."

[...]

 

by the way, i love this comparison you brought to the end of the piece! I really liked that image. I love few things more than being able to tie my music to expressive images. 

Thank you Krisp and see you soon!

Really lovely piece of music!

The harmony and orchestration are extremely colorful and create a really evocative mood.

I do agree that it feels at times like pieces joined together, as opposed to a whole. That's something I also find myself doing, so I completely understand. I think Henry's suggestion is a good one. I know for myself, I have to make a conscious effort to not get into an episodic mode when writing.

Like yourself, I am also a self taught composer. Don't let that get you down though. Just remember that Anton Bruckner was also a self taught composer and his music is played in concert halls across the globe.

Hi!

I listened to your finale days ago but didn't find time to reply so I'm re-listening. First of all I don't think any criticism or output in general that I'm going to write in this comment will be of much use, since I myself haven barely composed 2-3 works for many instruments. The sound is very good —except for the tremolos, maybe— I must say. In order to prevent a dense message lemme summarize what I have been thinking while listening & reading.

• Despite the lack of well-defined structure, you know your game: you seem to be comfortable in transitioning between calmer sections that you make interesting by themselves and more vivid ones. Your music, at least to my taste, flows despite of that "flaw". You made it like that though, so if you are already convinced of the result you got, I personally wouldn't change a note. That said, I would need to listen to the whole work to see how much of a finale it is and how much it relates with the other three movements, because right now it tells a story to me that begins and ends quite decently...

• Yeah, regarding the final part that I would definitely call "The unknown soldier's trumpet solo" quoting @Krisp's words, I believe you could have extended there a bit more, I just felt it ended a bit too soon, I didn't perceive a proper preparation (considering again this is a finale and the ending of a 14 minutes piece) but perhaps it's just me, I am often very nit-picky with ending sections sorry.

In summary, you have the tools, you have the sound and you have the skills needed to combine all of that as we all have listened and make a very beautiful and promising movement. Trying to abide to a more strict structure could be a way to progress further. Thank you so much for enriching this forum with your truly good movement.

Kind regards,
Daniel–Ømicrón.

 

Hey - I haven't read what everyone else has said, but I just wanted to chime in and say that I love this tone poem which to me is very evocative of spring.  I can think of a blooming forest, or a waterfall in an overgrown mountain range, with river rapids and plenty of wildlife.  There doesn't seem to be a clear theme, except for this impression I get of perpetual motion suggestive of spring.  This style is quite beautiful as is, but I think it would be more memorable if you alluded to a theme here and there, preferably to one varied theme, or to maybe two or more themes that complement each other or are interrelated somehow.  Thanks for sharing!

Hey guys,
thanks for your comments. Unfortunately I'm very busy at the moment and don't manage to reply faster, which doesn't mean I won't still find the time to read the comments.

@BipolarComposer Thanks, I didn't know that Bruckner never studied composition. But it's nice to know that even someone without studying composition can achieve such a reputation. It's easy to feel incapable sometimes, but I think if one loves music enough one will always strive to improve and keep writing something new and improving.

@Omicronrg9 I will upload the rest of the symphony soon so you can also see how the individual movements correlate with each other. However, I must say that I am not yet completely satisfied with it. I don't think the movements fit together as well as they could, but I never changes things after I finished a Symphony (I feel like that would make things worse). Instead, I usually write a new symphony in which I try to apply my newly learned knowledge. I notice how I learn and get better with every piece I write. So far, however, I have only been able to write a few pieces I was satisfied with in every aspect. But I upload the pieces in the forum anyways because I find such criticism (like yours) particularly helpful and this helps me to develop further.

@PeterthePapercomPoser I am currently working on a few pieces in which I am trying to create clearer motifs and structures. When they are finished I will publish them here. I can't wait.

Greetings

Nico