Sonata nr 4, first movement

I just finished the first movement of a new sonata. Here is the sound file and the score.

The motif (the first 7 bars) of this movement has been in my head for quite a long time, and I

could not get rid of it. It kept popping up all the time, so I had to do something with it.

There may still be some errors in the score, and I would be grateful if you could review it.

I am of course curious to find out what you think of this piece..

Best regards.

Hi Panta,

The beginning of your sonata is so good! There are various exciting materials throughout the piece, which keep the listeners engaged. Also, the character of your sonata is enhanced further with excellent use of articulations and dynamics. I also adore your clever use of harmonic vocabulary, especially the interrupted cadence in bars 101-102 and the Neapolitan Sixth in bar 181. I am honestly impressed by your work, and you have done a great job recreating the classical style!

However, I feel that the structure of this movement is less organized. First, the exposition is pretty short, and I expect a second theme in the dominant key (E major), which is common in piano sonatas from the Classical period. From 1:42 onwards, I hear several other themes, most not previously heard, making me wonder if this is the development section or a continuation of the exposition. Another reason that I think of this is that you included a perfect cadence at bars 54-55, seemingly concluding the exposition.

Besides, near the end of the piece (starting from 4:33), I can still hear all these themes playing one after another. And the recapitulation appears to be missing: the main theme is not repeated in the end, which is not quite traditional. Nevertheless, the movement's coda is remarkable, and I really like it. Great work!

Carl Koh Wei Hao

Hi @panta rei,

I agree with @Carl Koh Wei Hao that the structure of the movement is less coherent but this is the same issue Schubert being criticized too sometimes. I love your less tight structure with the reappearance of the opening theme everywhere in different context. I don't think the form here is sonata form though and I always quite enjoy the fleeing structure actually! I myself compose in quite a coherent style and I love to see other styles as well!

Your unexpected modulation and chord usage is always great, like the neopolitan sixth and the interrupted cadences Carl mentioned. This time I like how the modulation linked with the opening motive! You always use the opening theme to transit here which is a great device. For example in b.71 I find the repetition of the opening melody boring but no! You give us other direction there and all the way modulate to my favourite C sharp minor. 

That theme in b.101 is almost identical to the theme in Schubert's D.960, b.131 of the first movement (which comes from the exposition though). Very Schubertian here (even more so than the opening). I feel like this is the middle part of the ternary structure. But even as a C sharp minor enthusiast I still find the C sharp minor stays a little bit too long here as it is modulated in b.83 and you only start modulate in b.170. there are modulations within it but not long and persistent which gives a feeling of static C sharp minor here.  The passages in it are ofc very beautiful e.g. the simplistic but not-so-simplistic melody in b.105 and very nice progression in b.138. 

The progression in b.187-188 from G sharp minor to A major is not quite satisfactory for me since the A major is not prepared harmonically at all even with the recurrent material in A major. I think you should at least add an intermediate pivotal E major chord for the transition. Even with the comeback of the A major the opening material is not combined with it, which can cause confusion here as you quickly modulate again to D major in b.197. Very nice melody in C major, but the key is somewhat confusing here with the imbalance of key structure as you only have the A major back in b.275 which only remains 20 bars for it.

Still this is a very enjoyable and lovely movement!

On 3/27/2023 at 2:06 AM, panta rei said:

I am of course curious to find out what you think of this piece..

Hopefully you can review other members' posts here more too! We are curious on how you feel to other members' music here! Thanks for sharing as always Johan!

Henry

On 3/27/2023 at 8:02 PM, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

However, I feel that the structure of this movement is less organized. First, the exposition is pretty short, and I expect a second theme in the dominant key (E major), which is common in piano sonatas from the Classical period. From 1:42 onwards, I hear several other themes, most not previously heard, making me wonder if this is the development section or a continuation of the exposition. Another reason that I think of this is that you included a perfect cadence at bars 54-55, seemingly concluding the exposition.

Besides, near the end of the piece (starting from 4:33), I can still hear all these themes playing one after another. And the recapitulation appears to be missing: the main theme is not repeated in the end, which is not quite traditional.

 

 

Hello Carl,

Thank you very much for your extensive feedback, and I am really glad that you like the piece.

But reading your comments, I also realize that this piece is too disorganized to be called a sonata. All your arguments are absolutely correct! (and Henry has come to the same conclusion).

I am therefore considering to change the title of the piece into something else, for example:

I had planned to write a second and third movement, but I could skip this, or perhaps write these movements as separate pieces.

Again, I very much appreciate your excellent review. Thanks a lot!

Hello Henry,

Great review, as always! I am amazed by your reviewing capacity. How do you find the time to do all this work?  It is admirable.

Back to some of your issues:

About the sonata form, I agree with you (see my reply to Carl).

Funny that you mentioned b. 71. I had exactly the same feeling as you described. Is this repetition going to be boring? But then ….. I left it, since the surprise comes a few seconds later.

On 3/28/2023 at 5:03 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

That theme in b.101 is almost identical to the theme in Schubert's D.960, b.131 of the first movement

The theme in b.101 is indeed reminiscent to the theme in Schubert´s D 960 sonata, as you mentioned but there are some distinct differences in construction and functionality. Schubert used this theme as a vehicle for a series of modulations (incredibly beautiful). In my case, the left hand melody notes starting in b. 101-104 followed by the right hand melody notes of b. 105 -118 constitutes an essential melodic frame of the piece, which  is recurring many times (in different forms). There is also a difference in the  arpeggio and bass notation structure, in line with the functionality.  

On 3/28/2023 at 5:03 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

The progression in b.187-188 from G sharp minor to A major is not quite satisfactory for me since the A major is not prepared harmonically at all even with the recurrent material in A major. I think you should at least add an intermediate pivotal E major chord for the transition. Even with the comeback of the A major the opening material is not combined with it, which can cause confusion here as you quickly modulate again to D major in b.197. Very nice melody in C major, but the key is somewhat confusing here with the imbalance of key structure as you only have the A major back in b.275 which only remains 20 bars for it.

Although these progressions are probably not in accordance with standard rules, I do not perceive them as unpleasant or jarring. I often use unusual transitions/modulations and of course, not everybody will like these constructions. But that is the freedom we have as composers- to jump a bit away from the conventions.

On 3/28/2023 at 5:03 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Hopefully you can review other members' posts here more too! We are curious on how you feel to other members' music here!

I agree that I should  review more  music of the other members. The problem is that I am a very slow reviewer and I do not have the available time for it . It can take me more than a day to provide a constructive feedback.  But I will start to review some selected pieces.

Thank you very much again for your comprehensive and constructive inputs!

Johan

On 3/30/2023 at 7:08 PM, panta rei said:

Piece for piano in A-major” (maybe you have a better suggestion ?). In this way, I would not be restricted to follow the formal rules of the sonata form.

I think Sonata una quasi fantasia a good name for your piece (and your sonatas in general). In this way at least the 1st mov doesn't need to be in sonata form as in Beethoven's two sonatas in the same name (no.13 and 14 the Moonlight).

Excellent suggestion!

Thanks Henry

3 hours ago, panta rei said:

“Piece for piano in A-major” (maybe you have a better suggestion ?). In this way, I would not be restricted to follow the formal rules of the sonata form.

I have the same thought as Henry. Sonata una quasi fantasia is a good suggestion.

23 hours ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

I have the same thought as Henry. Sonata una quasi fantasia is a good suggestion.

 

OK  Carl (and Henry), I changed the title of the piece

16 minutes ago, panta rei said:

OK  Carl (and Henry), I changed the title of the piece

I think you can still retain Piano Sonata no.4 though and add "quasi una fantasia" after that like this if you want to specify it's your fourth Sonata as in Beethoven's example:

Thanks again Henry!  I changed it in that way (but I omitted the key description)

I am now reviewing your excellent sonata nr 2 (the Andante). I have some minor comments which might be useful.

Best regards