Caprice for Solo Violin No. 1

"This is my first Caprice for Solo violin. It is my submission to the "From Bits to Bangers" Young Composers music competition. I chose the first of the five 8-bit video game music tracks available to be chosen from, the "Dragon's Lair". The beginning of my piece starts off from my perception of the starting part of the track. Then I proceed to build on it what becomes my caprice. Later that initial part returns in various different forms."

The above was my description of the piece that I provided with my submission to the competition. For me the piece sounds like a masterpiece all-through. And since music cannot be judged - at least not entirely - objectively, if at all (its appeal being largely subjective), I think I am entitled to my opinion and my opinion counts. And yet, most of the judges of the competition - at least 3 of 5 of them - judged it as extremely a bad piece, failing to see anything good in it at all. One even had the impudence to give a score of "0" in one category! The question arises: in such competitions where judges rule, who judges the judges? Are there no criteria to hold them accountable when they cross lines and let their subjective biases show through? I guess my music is of such a high level that it is only appreciated by a select few. And since music's appeal is largely subjective, if the majority of judges and even the audience condemn it as bad it should not and does not matter.

I have spoken this time when at other times I did not (when posting a judged piece) since this time the judgements, especially by 3 of the judges were unacceptably harsh and would seem to amount to a devaluation of the piece. And also because if I stay silent again this time, it will be taken as acceptance of all that degrading, unacceptable, judgemental and devaluing judgements by 3-5 of the 6 judges. As to why I chose to speak here, a place that might seem inappropriate since it is intended for posting pieces, the reasons are twofold: 1) I did not want to be lured into the "Dragon's Lair" of the judges themselves by responding with my objections in the premises of the competition where my piece was almost trodden underfoot. 2) There must be a re-evaluation of my masterpiece - at least in my opinion - and so when posting it I could not afford to not make my opinion of the unacceptable nature of  the judgements it underwent in that competition clear!!!                                                                                 

luderart, 

Hi, it's me, Vince, the one that gave you the lowest score. 

It sounds like you're clearly upset about the results of the competition. Your defense seems to be that since music is largely subjective, and since you view your own work as a masterpiece, my score was out of line. 

This was a competition of "Bits to Bangers"...you know, 8 bit tracks very limited by technology that were bumpin' and awesome, and you were supposed to bring it to life. You chose, "Dragon's Lair", one of my favorite tracks to choose from.

What are some things that come to mind when listening?

In the 8-bit track, I hear a haunting bass line, slight minor chromaticism in the melody, interesting chord changes, diminished/minor harmonies...things that evoke a spooky atmosphere awaiting a hero to save the day. 

So how did your piece relate to it? Well, literally the only way I heard it relate in any way was the stock rhythm you took from the bass line. To me it sounded like you didn't really adhere to the concept of the purpose of the challenge, like exactly everyone else did. Hence, I gave you a low score. My scores were very close, except for yours, because you gave us nothing remotely close to a Dragon's lair, and instead chose to take that dotted eighth sixteenth rhythm and run with it in whatever way you saw fit. 

Aside from the music, how dare you challenge what we chose to give for scores. The whole staff constantly confers on discord, including questions we may have had regarding any of the competitions. We're all out here surviving just like you, and we took a lot of time to make sure that we gave every last detail to the best of our ability. None of us have written masterpieces like you claim to have done, and I think I could say that they would all agree with that assessment. The six of us have spent our own time and money on creating these competitions to keep this place growing because we all love what it has to offer. We're all making our way through the world wielding this art form of composition and trying to get better all the time, unlike a maestro as great as yourself as you like to self proclaim.  

So get off your high horse and accept the 2 that I gave you. Your music was barely reminiscent of the theme, used a sort of boring theme-sequence kind of form, didn't take advantage of what a solo instrument could do (again, like I told you in your review, I thought a solo instrument could have been cool), and DIDN'T HAVE ONE DYNAMIC MARKING. You couldn't be bothered to even tell us how soft or loud to play, so I couldn't be bothered to score your pieces remotely close to the efforts of your competitors. 

Post your soliloquys all you want, you won't hear anything bad from me. It's a cool concept. But don't slander the hard work we all put into YC and accept the score given to you. It reflects the effort and music you offered, not you. Listen to what everyone else submitted...imo BANGERS. Quit crying and don't get offended that your music wasn't up to par...it wasn't even close. 

Hello @luderart,

To your post I will have the following reply.

2 hours ago, luderart said:

For me the piece sounds like a masterpiece all-through. And since music cannot be judged - at least not entirely - objectively, if at all (its appeal being largely subjective), I think I am entitled to my opinion and my opinion counts.

You are right that music cannot be judged entirely objectively, and you are entitled to your opinion and your opinion counts. But you may forget that arts also has INTER-SUBJECTIVITY in it. There IS a general consensus on the taste and craft of a piece of work. Your vote on your piece as masterpiece counts, but the piece has also to be judged by others as well. You can also claim "Mary Had a Little Lamb" a masterpiece... but it can in no way compare to a Beethoven Symphony. This is also a consensus no only by the judges, but also on YC since your score in the popular poll is also one of the lowest.

2 hours ago, luderart said:

One even had the impudence to give a score of "0" in one category! The question arises: in such competitions where judges rule, who judges the judges? Are there no criteria to hold them accountable when they cross lines and let their subjective biases show through?

We as judges of course have our own subjective taste, if you say it's bias. But to be a competition comparison between entries is necessary and crucial for making the scores. You can listen to all of the other contestants' works and you may know why we give you the score. Overall I give you a 3.5 since I think the music is less satisfactory and inferior to other contestants' entries. If we give you high marks, I am afraid it will be unfair to other contestants and ruin the whole competition.

Also we are all volunteers who won't receive any benefits by deliberately devaluing your works. We are all using our extra time and energy to organize the event and judge all of them; @Tónskáld even gives out prize money for the winner. It is unfair to say that we "cross lines and let our subjective biases show through". 

2 hours ago, luderart said:

I guess my music is of such a high level that it is only appreciated by a select few. And since music's appeal is largely subjective, if the majority of judges and even the audience condemn it as bad it should not and does not matter.

If it doesn't matter, then why do you get this agitated? Just enjoy the appreciation in your dogmatic slumber if you really believe your music is of such a high level. This will only prevent your growth and progress as a composer.  I myself am not professional either but I won't be as stubborn as you to reject all honest opinions towards your music and name them as "unacceptably harsh" and "degrading, unacceptable, judgemental and devaluing judgements". 

2 hours ago, luderart said:

2) There must be a re-evaluation of my masterpiece - at least in my opinion - and so when posting it I could not afford to not make my opinion of the unacceptable nature of  the judgements it underwent in that competition clear!!!

I think you really should re-evaluate your conception of a "masterpiece". You can find numerous of them in the great composers, but at least not in your pieces. But as you have your distinctive opinion you can of course stay with your taste and remain your conception of masterpiece which includes your own works. But other people's taste should be valued as important as yours so you should never challenge others first.

I hope you will understand the intention behind our scores and I feel it necessary to defend ourselves. 

Henry

3 hours ago, luderart said:

And since music's appeal is largely subjective, if the majority of judges and even the audience condemn it as bad it should not and does not matter.

Then why enter the competition?  The way in which the competition was going to be judged was disclosed ahead of time in the competition announcement, including the 8 criteria of judging and the 8 point scale.  It was obvious also (since this was also announced), that the competition would have 1st place, 2nd place and 3rd place winners as well as winners in all the other criteria and popular voting categories, and this obviously also requires that the entries be compared to each other in some objective way.

3 hours ago, luderart said:

For me the piece sounds like a masterpiece all-through.

Yes, apparently, for you, your piece is a masterpiece.  But if you already knew this, and if your opinion counts above all others, why seek out the opinion of others in the first place?  I mean, it's obvious that you enjoy your own music, and that's all that counts right?  Nobody is attacking your right to enjoy your own music, but your motivation for entering the competition in the first place is suspect if all you're going to do is use the results of the competition as an opportunity to assert that "I think I am entitled to my opinion and my opinion counts."  Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but it should have been enough to assert your opinion here in the forums instead of attacking anybody who has different opinions.  And can you really expect that others won't have different opinions?  We live in a very diverse and opinionated world!

The competition is not an occasion to jump on the reviewers, who all judged the competition in good faith.  The fact that anyone gave you a 0 or any other score matters little in isolation.  The numbers only have meaning relative to each other, and using both 8's and 0's only means that the reviewers are using the full length of the spectrum of the scoring definitions to evaluate the entries.

In the end, I hope you don't take the reviews and scores personally.  Maybe if every contestant had written a one to two minute piece for a solo instrument, the odds of you winning or getting higher scores would have been more likely.  But, even just comparing the sheer amount of work that others put into their entries, your (really short) piece just couldn't compare.  I know it can be a bummer but I hope that you use this as a learning experience and inspiration to compose more in the future.

Peter

Hi,

I have looked through your score. It is a solo piece, which already makes it difficult to compete due to monophony (I know there are some double stops). Beyond this, I have to ask you: what do you see here that pushes that boundaries or makes you better than other composers (living or dead)?

What I see: basic and standard rhythms, all in normal meter, pretty much all diatonic D minor, limited use of range, no use of extended techniques or unique timbres, small dynamic expression range, and lack of form. I have not listened to the track; maybe some of these would blow out my expectations.

I host a competition every year for people to submit their music to and get it played. Your work would not make it to the second round in its current state. We do not necessarily need to be boundary pushing composers all the time, but I believe some level of pushing ourselves to do things we are uncomfortable with as composers with each work is important. Any composer could noodle around on D minor with some knowledge of etudes and music theory to create something loosely similar to your work here. THAT is why it got a low score, I guarantee it. 

It is one thing to be upset that not enough people enjoy your work (I also had two judges say my work was not for them), but why do we need their approval? We write to be great for ourselves, not for internet/judge randos. Being unopen to criticism is what will keep you stuck in a hole of ignorance, though. There are plenty of points you can take and grow from this competition. Right now, you are taking a childish approach and walling yourself off from anything that degrades your perfect view of yourself. 

Just ask yourself, “What level of hard work did I put into this work that deserves recognition?” I spent 500 hours writing, editing, engraving, and pushing a wind ensemble piece I composed. I am so proud of it, but it isn’t most people’s cup of tea. But, I worked damn hard and will not let negative comments drag that work down. Instead, I funnel constructive criticism into my next piece in order to continue growing as a composer. You don’t have to keep everything or most things, but constructive criticism helps other people influence you into growing.

You are right in that music is subjective, but I will remind you that meeting the requirements of a competition are critical if you want to do well. Receiving low scores doesn't mean your music is bad, and doesn't reflect who you are as a composer. It simply means that more people saw that this specific piece of music just did not fit the criteria. For example, something as incredible as Beethoven's 5th Symphony would have gotten low scores if you think about it, maybe except for melody and harmony, because it would have most certainly not fit the criteria for this competition!

With that said, I personally enjoyed your work, but enjoying something doesn't mean a judge has to give high scores for this particular event. The whole idea of the competition was to convert 8 bit tunes into something bigger. Right off the bat, your piece was one track making it difficult to judge. So in terms of orchestration, the form of your piece ended up being too small (and of course this is my very subjective opinion as one of the judges). But then this is why we have 6 judges. I also had to look at what the other contestants did as well, and all of them had multi track works. I realize this wasn't a specific condition of the contest, however you were up against 8 other people. In a competition like this, the other works will either set the bar a lot higher, or a lot lower. But in this case, the bar was set quite high, because the quality of submissions were immaculate.

I know it is disheartening sometimes to receive feedback that is on the negative side, but you can quietly use this feedback to your advantage. There are many of the great composers who had to endure such criticism in the past, and this was their profession and livelihood. So they were forced to listen to the feedback from their audience in order to improve. If you don't adapt to feedback, you end up losing. And this doesn't apply to just music. It applies to anything in life.

16 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

If it doesn't matter, then why do you get this agitated?

I get agitated because I am human and I get affected by such bad opinions and judgements about my music!

16 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Then why enter the competition? 

I entered it for the  challenge and the fun. (Besides, there were I think about three reminders in my e-mail about the competition). I never expected the judges to subject my piece to such a severe judgement. But then again,  I will think much more and never again lightly enter a competition in the future.                        

Yes, apparently, for you, your piece is a masterpiece.  But if you already knew this, and if your opinion counts above all others, why seek out the opinion of others in the first place?  I mean, it's obvious that you enjoy your own music, and that's all that counts right?  Nobody is attacking your right to enjoy your own music,

I never said that my opinion counts above all others. I am just saying that it counts too. When the majority of judges is turning against my  piece, I am just upholding my right to have an opinion too and asserting that it counts too.

The competition is not an occasion to jump on the reviewers, who all judged the competition in good faith.  The fact that anyone gave you a 0 or any other score matters little in isolation.  The numbers only have meaning relative to each other, and using both 8's and 0's only means that the reviewers are using the full length of the spectrum of the scoring definitions to evaluate the entries.

"0" is not relative. It is the absence of any quantity or value.

In the end, I hope you don't take the reviews and scores personally.  Maybe if every contestant had written a one to two minute piece for a solo instrument, the odds of you winning or getting higher scores would have been more likely.  But, even just comparing the sheer amount of work that others put into their entries, your (really short) piece just couldn't compare.  I know it can be a bummer but I hope that you use this as a learning experience and inspiration to compose more in the future.

Thanks for this final positive advice. I had to speak up because the criticism and judgement cut like a knife into my very inspiration to compose. They acted like rather a dis-inspiration to composition, like a counterincentive to composing! If that was not your intention with this competition, then you have a lot of serious reflection to do!

8 hours ago, chopin said:

With that said, I personally enjoyed your work,

 

Thanks! You were the only one who had anything positive to say about it! Perhaps the other judges ought to learn from you and first look at the positive things in the piece and only then focus on criticizing it.

For a more general criticism of the competition's judging format, how can one judge and grade "taste"? Isn't taste a subjective thing? I think it's absurd to purport to judge and grade contestants' taste!

1 hour ago, luderart said:

For a more general criticism of the competition's judging format, how can one judge and grade "taste"? Isn't taste a subjective thing? I think it's absurd to purport to judge and grade contestants' taste!

Every judges' personal opinion enters into the judging process and the taste criterion is meant to separate those personal opinions from more objective attempts at evaluation.  The taste criterion allows the judges to score how much they personally enjoyed a particular composition.  The judges aren't robots - they have feelings too.

15 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Every judges' personal opinion enters into the judging process and the taste criterion is meant to separate those personal opinions from more objective attempts at evaluation.  The taste criterion allows the judges to score how much they personally enjoyed a particular composition.  The judges aren't robots - they have feelings too.

 

If that is what you mean by "taste", i.e. the judge's "personal opinion" and not the contestant's "taste", then why not just put that criterion as "judge's personal opinion" and spare the contestants from potentially being humiliated by being judged badly even for their taste?

OMG will you stop with the salt? Your piece didn't compare to the other contestants, ask anyone that could be labeled as human. No one is attacking you, we're all saying your effort was subpar with everyone else. That's it, dude. Can it.

10 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

OMG will you stop with the salt? Your piece didn't compare to the other contestants, ask anyone that could be labeled as human. No one is attacking you, we're all saying your effort was subpar with everyone else. That's it, dude. Can it.

 

 What are you replying to here? I was just saying that the "Taste" criterion should be renamed "Judge's personal opinion" as Peter said it actually refers to, and not a judgement of the contestant's taste. Are you against that? I am just trying to make the judging process more accurately reflect your intentions in that last category. What does that have to do with my piece. It is your - and any judge's - opinion about my piece (or any contestant's piece) and not your judgement of my taste - as  Peter acknowledged. That is what I am simply trying to ensure is clarified to everyone's benefit! If you still insist on judging contestant's taste and thereby insisting that only the judges' taste matters and that judges enjoy the power to judge even contestants' taste - something everyone agrees is subjective - then go discuss your disagreement with Peter and the other judges, not me.                                                                       

Hey @luderart

I actually enjoyed your piece very much! I will not say it's a masterpiece, because we have Paganini and when you name a certain piece a caprice, comparisons will be made. And it is a pretty short track for it to be a caprice really - not enough variations, I'd expect triple of the size you made, because your middle-to-end part is really nice and wants some continuation but you end it really suddenly, whereas you could explore more of violin sound and relay your initial theme onto it, like Paganini does. 

As for the competition, like with the winner, I don't see a connection with the initial track. The Dragon's Lair track, at least in my perspective, has a really dark mood (because it is played in the dungeon level of the game) and I actually don't know what you took from it, because there is no darkness, there are no characteristic to the piece chromatic movements.

Even with that things said, I think your piece has a great potential and I heard it through a a lot of times listening to it. It's just that it has little developement, and, for the competition, little to do with original track, because somehow you managed to take a track, as you say, but the outcome is so original, that the original theme is unhearable.

That being said, I don't think it deserves such a low score indeed. 

On 4/16/2023 at 12:30 PM, AlexeySavelyev said:

Hey @luderart

I actually enjoyed your piece very much! I will not say it's a masterpiece, because we have Paganini and when you name a certain piece a caprice, comparisons will be made. And it is a pretty short track for it to be a caprice really - not enough variations, I'd expect triple of the size you made, because your middle-to-end part is really nice and wants some continuation but you end it really suddenly, whereas you could explore more of violin sound and relay your initial theme onto it, like Paganini does. 

As for the competition, like with the winner, I don't see a connection with the initial track. The Dragon's Lair track, at least in my perspective, has a really dark mood (because it is played in the dungeon level of the game) and I actually don't know what you took from it, because there is no darkness, there are no characteristic to the piece chromatic movements.

Even with that things said, I think your piece has a great potential and I heard it through a a lot of times listening to it. It's just that it has little developement, and, for the competition, little to do with original track, because somehow you managed to take a track, as you say, but the outcome is so original, that the original theme is unhearable.

That being said, I don't think it deserves such a low score indeed. 

 

Thanks AlexeySavelyev for your positive feedback! It's great to know that besides me, some family members and one of the judges, there are other members of its audience - the 2nd place winner of the competition no less, for which I congratulate you! - who enjoyed my piece! I think that with your review of my piece, its reevaluation that I had called for in my opening post has already started. Indeed Paganini's 24 caprices are the great masterpieces in the genre of the caprice. And it is true that any other violin caprices would naturally be compared to them. I am a great admirer of those pieces. I hope in the future to compose longer caprices with better development. I have already composed a second one, but it is also pretty short.    

Mistaken double post!

Just gonna put my 2 cents in here. I recently was in a competition that to me, I clearly had the best piece in. I placed, but I didn't win. I was not very happy with the results. But, seeing as I didn't want to be entitled or piss off an entire community of people, I accepted my place in the competition with some grace. I know that I should have won, but what's more important? The connections you find and maintain in a community of like minded people, or your superficial (your sentiment in your rebuttal) place among them ("above" or "below")? Why would being in what you perceive to be a higher strata of composers on here, according to judges who you don't seem to respect, mean anything to someone holding the opinions about art that you do?

My point is this. Competitions are messy and oftentimes hurt your ego. But nothing hurts worse than losing your connection with people. I hope you find some peace of mind in the coming days, and if you need to chat, message me any time. 

On 4/19/2023 at 8:28 AM, Left Unexplained said:

Why would being in what you perceive to be a higher strata of composers on here, according to judges who you don't seem to respect, mean anything to someone holding the opinions about art that you do?

This is not about higher or lower “strata” of composers as you imagine, nor even about my disagreement with the judges in the competition. It is simply my duty as the composer of the piece to ensure, as I introduce the piece while myself posting it here for the first time, that it receives the appreciation I believe it is due!

9 hours ago, luderart said:

that it receives the appreciation I believe it is due!

nobody owes you respect aside from respecting your rights. If you feel like you deserve more respect, that's your problem and if you really cared about getting genuine respect you would try to adapt to the world around you rather than attempting to adapt the world to your needs and self image. 

6 hours ago, Left Unexplained said:

nobody owes you respect aside from respecting your rights. If you feel like you deserve more respect, that's your problem and if you really cared about getting genuine respect you would try to adapt to the world around you rather than attempting to adapt the world to your needs and self image. 

 

Nobody composes if they do not believe in the value of their compositions. Nobody shares a piece if they do not believe it is of value....

I had little to do with the competition, running into trouble giving a 'false' vote so I left it alone (not your piece I have to add).

I see nothing wrong with this piece at all. It's fine. It would take a Paganini to play it with that stream of double stops but that aside. Am I right that you're a violinist?

From looking at the score I think you need more slurs over the rapid runs - but that's a moot point now, I suppose. Keep it in mind for the future.

This could take its place in any solo violin repertoire. 

.

1 hour ago, luderart said:

Nobody composes if they do not believe in the value of their compositions. Nobody shares a piece if they do not believe it is of value....

nobody who believes in themselves, truly, would do what you've done here.

Accidental double post, lol

1 hour ago, Quinn said:

I had little to do with the competition, running into trouble giving a 'false' vote so I left it alone (not your piece I have to add).

I see nothing wrong with this piece at all. It's fine. It would take a Paganini to play it with that stream of double stops but that aside. Am I right that you're a violinist?

From looking at the score I think you need more slurs over the rapid runs - but that's a moot point now, I suppose. Keep it in mind for the future.

This could take its place in any solo violin repertoire. 

 

Thanks Quinn for your review of the piece and your positive opinion about it, as well as your advice. Actually I am not a violinist. But I play the violoncello.

On 4/14/2023 at 2:07 PM, Eickso said:

I have looked through your score. It is a solo piece, which already makes it difficult to compete due to monophony (I know there are some double stops). Beyond this, I have to ask you: what do you see here that pushes that boundaries or makes you better than other composers (living or dead)?

What I see: basic and standard rhythms, all in normal meter, pretty much all diatonic D minor, limited use of range, no use of extended techniques or unique timbres, small dynamic expression range, and lack of form. I have not listened to the track; maybe some of these would blow out my expectations.

I find this comment difficult to understand - for several reasons. One is, unless this was played live, one's tied to the sampled articulations available. As for monophony, the harmony is well implied in the melody as is often the case with a melody instrument. 

Why does one have to "push boundaries" or try to outdo the likes of Beethoven or Mozart or Adams? If that was an essential requirement of the competition it should have been stressed. On the strength of what you've said here, a goodly chunk of what's submitted here generally would be carp (typo) which in most cases it isn't, especially for the many beginners or those of limited experience. How many compositions presented here aren't in normal rhythms and diatonic? You won't find many. (I know all mine are 4/4 but that bears no relation to what happens in the score.

I'd personally be happier if music wasn't turned into a combative sport but understandably some creators like a challenge. It depends on why we practice our art. It's why I rarely join in. I'm always open-minded to criticism good or bad but constructive, in regards to balance, development, scoring is always helpful because I'm open to revision. So one has to accept that judgement is only opinion - as when someone submits a piece here and asks for feedback.

What's also confused me is [edit] I can't reconcile [/edit] "What I see...." with "I have not listened to the track." Try listening to it.

Cheers.

28 minutes ago, Left Unexplained said:

nobody who believes in themselves, truly, would do what you've done here.

 

I see nothing wrong in his post. He felt insulted and expressed so in all honesty. I also had issues with some comments about his piece - instead of going supportive and offering what could've been done some went in completely different direction giving harsh criticism after which some would quit writing music completely. Which is unacceptable. Of course this is no masterpiece as he states, because there is so much stuff missing for it to become such, but instead of bashing someone for thinking that way, better help them become better