Piano Sonata no.2 in A-flat Major, 3rd Movement

Hi everyone! I am here to present the third movement of my Piano Sonata no.2 in A-flat major. Previous two movements are also posted in YC and you can have a look in them if you're interested:

The third movement opens with the opening theme of the first movement in a more flowing manner with some counterpoint. It also plays with the texture of the second movement with the movement almost non-stop with the quavers except some cadential moments. 

The pdf and mp3 files are attached as usual:

Piano Sonata no.2 3rd mov 26-04-2023.pdf

The movement is in sonata form without a development, since nothing needs to be developed here as an Intermezzo:

00:00 Exposition, 1st Subject

00:31 Transition (?)

01:15 Exposition, 2nd Subject

02:01 Recapitulation, 1st Subject

02:26 Transition (?)

02:53 Recapitulation, 2nd Subject

03:40 Coda, roads leading to the main hurdle...

 (Even I myself am not sure where is the beginning of the transitions and 2nd subjects since there's no medial caesura...)

For me this is my least favourite movement of the sonata. I feel like it's less emotional and authentic here than any other movements. But of course this can be a bias. 

The youtube video is also attached here:

After this movement it's time for the real hurdle and my favourite movement of the sonata... Even though it's prepared and hinted throughout the previous movements but the coda of this movement cannot tell less of it... Stay tuned...

Henry

Hi Henry,

What a lovely movement you've posted here. Let's jump into the comments/criticisms:

• From the first phrase I could tell that you're biggest influence when writing this piece was Beethoven. That's not a bad thing, just an observation.
•  I found the constant quaver accompaniment in the first transition section a bit boring. Maybe vary it a little?

That's all I can really comment on from this listen. Great piece. Hope to hear the next movement soon.

Kind regards,

Arjuna

Hey Arjuna,

Thanks for your review and your compliment! I personally think the movement is fine but I am happy you like it!

7 hours ago, expert21 said:

From the first phrase I could tell that you're biggest influence when writing this piece was Beethoven. That's not a bad thing, just an observation.

Yes! Back then I was a really Beethovanian guy! But I'm curious, why the first phrase seems Beethovenian? Isn't that more like the opening of a Bach invention?🤔

7 hours ago, expert21 said:

I found the constant quaver accompaniment in the first transition section a bit boring. Maybe vary it a little?

I agree the movement is a little boring too. Maybe I'm thinking of Perpetuum mobile here and have the quaver rhythm flowing in every passage. It may also be the reminiscent of the previous movement where it's also a Perpetuum mobile but in a much more intense semiquaver rhythm in Presto.

7 hours ago, expert21 said:

Hope to hear the next movement soon.

I have the fourth movement too, and I think I will post it in two weeks' time. That's my favourite movement of the sonata and you will see a more authentic Henry there (?). It's in my favourite C# minor!!!

Thanks for your review!

Henry

Good time of the day, Henry!
I'm enjoyed your composition. Your melodies are some similar to Haydn's and Mozart's themes, but facture is some similar to inventions of Bach. Together it makes an interesting stylistic effect. It is really postmodernly. When I have been listening I thought that you played with music forms and melodic idioms. Something was like yours reflections about past music ages. 

Hi @Alexx,

Thank you very much for your review! I am happy you enjoyed it.

18 hours ago, Alexx said:

Your melodies are some similar to Haydn's and Mozart's themes, but facture is some similar to inventions of Bach.

Yeah you're right the texture is similar to Bachian invention! That's what I was thinking of when composing this little movement and I sort of try to combine the texture with the sonatina form. I didn't think of Haydn and Mozart then since I was utterly Beethovanian then but the light heartedness of the music does match them!

18 hours ago, Alexx said:

When I have been listening I thought that you played with music forms and melodic idioms. Something was like yours reflections about past music ages. 

I remember I did want an invention-like touch then and other than this I just went for it. I do reflect a lot though and hopefully they reflect in my music.

If you are interested you can also have a look in the previous movements also posted here as well! The fourth movemebt should be out in two weeks time I guess.

Henry

This has some delightful canonic imitation!  I think as far as Beethoven influence is concerned in this piece, it's more on the early classical side of his oeuvre (or maybe more Bachian or Baroque as mentioned).  But I think it lacks his romanticism and emotional depth.  I do hope to hear something with more of the attitude of the "Eroica" (although you clearly are influenced by it in this piece with the accented offbeat chords in measures 73 - 74 and 136 - 137).  I thought you came to a satisfactory conclusion in measure 142, complete with an authentic cadence with a tonic pedal and ritardando - it leads the listener to strongly expect that that would be the ending.  But then you continue and to me, at least at first, that continuation seems out of place and unwanted.  Maybe if you had written some kind of deceptive cadence before the key change in the pick-ups to 143 it would lead the listener to expect some kind of continuation.  (Although now that I've listened to it a few times it doesn't bother me as much and it kinda serves as a type of fake recapitulation I guess).  My favorite parts are the canons and chorales in measures 63 - 75 and 126 - 138.  Some of the time though I feel like your phrases border on being run-on sentences and at least in my opinion lack direction, using too much scalar motion up and down the keyboard seemingly aimlessly.  But overall though, it's enjoyable and I think you played it quite beautifully!  Thanks for sharing!

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your review!

On 5/7/2023 at 2:15 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I think as far as Beethoven influence is concerned in this piece, it's more on the early classical side of his oeuvre (or maybe more Bachian or Baroque as mentioned)

For me I think I was more consciously using Bachian counterpoint (though not strict) combined with sonatina form. Beethoven influence for me is more indirect here as I never think of him in this movement.

On 5/7/2023 at 2:15 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

But I think it lacks his romanticism and emotional depth. 

Probably this is the reason why it's my least favourite movement of the sonata. But I have to say for the overall plan of the sonata it is a good thing to have a movement less emotional since all of the other movements are emotional especially the next one. Having something light hearted in the middle isn't that bad, that's why I call it an "Intermezzo".

On 5/7/2023 at 2:15 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I do hope to hear something with more of the attitude of the "Eroica" (although you clearly are influenced by it in this piece with the accented offbeat chords in measures 73 - 74 and 136 - 137). 

Well after you mentioned this I find there is influence from his Eroica! I never think of the Symphomy as this movement is suppose to be a light one and certainly not comparable to the gigantic Eroica!

On 5/7/2023 at 2:15 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I thought you came to a satisfactory conclusion in measure 142, complete with an authentic cadence with a tonic pedal and ritardando - it leads the listener to strongly expect that that would be the ending.

I don't think the ending is strongly expected there with the tonic pedal preventing a real authentic cadence happening. I feel like it's more a notice of danger there with clash of G and Ab in b.141.

On 5/7/2023 at 2:15 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

But then you continue and to me, at least at first, that continuation seems out of place and unwanted.  Maybe if you had written some kind of deceptive cadence before the key change in the pick-ups to 143 it would lead the listener to expect some kind of continuation.

But for me to have Db minor following Ab major is quite fluent since the Ab major is re-intrepreted as V/iv. And the coda may be out of place and unwanted in the context of this movement but certainly important for coherency as it implies the key of the next movememt which will happen haha! It may also match with the first movement, b.81 when the Ab major gets directly to the C# minor con delore section.

On 5/7/2023 at 2:15 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

My favorite parts are the canons and chorales in measures 63 - 75 and 126 - 138.

For me I have no favourite section in the movement since it's quite boring and emotionless. Maybe the coda is a better section as I like the canonic ending.

On 5/7/2023 at 2:15 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Some of the time though I feel like your phrases border on being run-on sentences and at least in my opinion lack direction, using too much scalar motion up and down the keyboard seemingly aimlessly. 

Yeah that can be lack of direction but it can be a good thing here since it does reflect what is needed. The mind is kind of fleeing aimlessly here which welcomes tragic feelings to be surfaced in the next movement.

Happy you find it beautiful Peter! The next movement for me will be much more beautiful!

Henry

A nice little piece, I like it. It reminds me of some classicist piano pieces. A little bit Beethoven-ish for me. Good counterpoint anyway!

Hey, dunno how I missed this.

What do you use to record yourself, Henry?

 

On 5/5/2023 at 6:08 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

For me this is my least favourite movement of the sonata. I feel like it's less emotional and authentic here than any other movements. But of course this can be a bias. 

Dunno, but I would say that you have indeed written better and more unique works. This one is not to be disdained though, it's very solid. There may be a lack of directionality, as Peter noticed too, and this may be the cause behind the lack of "emotionality" or "authenticity". I am no detective though, haha.

Too much legato perhaps? For me this phrase would have had a lot of power if stacatto: 
I would also suggest rapid arpeggios in the 1st beat of M104 and 105, I just think that it might be interesting to see if they fit. I marked on green what turned to be my favourite motive that you use in the right hand starting at the 3rd beat of M12 (but whose rhythm you anticipate already at the 2nd measure!) and that develops to its climax reached in the passage at M96-M99.

Overall a great work, but I agree with you in the, say, "emotional" aspect of the movement.

By the way, it seems that the score rendered badly at M96.


Kind regards Henry!!

Why hello there, Henry... the infamous Henry that I hear so much about. You're the talk of the town, the word on the street, the....

sorry, I'm dumb

I like this piece of yours. You mentioned it's your least favorite (I won't tell you not to do this anymore since you seem insistent to do so). Just because it doesn't have heavy emotional depth doesn't make it bad. I think it's what your sonata needed. A chorale 1st mvmt, a vigorous torrent of notes for the 2nd, and a jovial 3rd mvmt seems fitting. I know the character of the 4th, so I think with what I've heard so far it's what the music needed, not necessarily what you wanted to write.

That said, this was really cool. It's like Bach meets the Eroica symphony. I don't have much to gripe about, but with the previous 2 movements, you could have maybe made the overall texture a bit lighter. I like what you did, but was hoping for more spots with a single line and accented with light staccato chords or something. As is, it seemed more dense than it needed to be. 

 I agree about the comment of the chord at b.142. I don't think it was out of place necessarily, but a deceptive cadence or something along those lines might be advantageous to the music. 

All in all though, wonderful piece Henry. As much as I enjoy your compositions, I get just as much excitement out of your performance and ability to bring this to life. Fantastic music, can't wait to hear all 5 movements together!

Thx for your review @olivercomposer!

17 hours ago, olivercomposer said:

A nice little piece, I like it. It reminds me of some classicist piano pieces. A little bit Beethoven-ish for me. Good counterpoint anyway!

Yeah I guess Beethovanian element is in my blood at that time! Even though I didn't think of him in this movement he still appears! It's good to have something light those heavy movements! I am happy you like it!

Henry

Hey Daniel,

Thanks for your detailed review!

On 5/9/2023 at 8:15 AM, Omicronrg9 said:

Hey, dunno how I missed this.

Hmm......

On 5/9/2023 at 8:15 AM, Omicronrg9 said:

What do you use to record yourself, Henry?

I try using IPad to record this time but find the volume decreases. Not bad for the 4th movement though.

On 5/9/2023 at 8:15 AM, Omicronrg9 said:

Dunno, but I would say that you have indeed written better and more unique works. This one is not to be disdained though, it's very solid. There may be a lack of directionality, as Peter noticed too, and this may be the cause behind the lack of "emotionality" or "authenticity". I am no detective though, haha.

Yup I agree on this. I'm usually an emotional person but in this one I feel like I'm quite unemotional writing those notes. My music is more directed by emotions and ideas rather than form, or rather form combined with them rather than me wanting to write a sonata form, a fugue.

On 5/9/2023 at 8:15 AM, Omicronrg9 said:

Too much legato perhaps? For me this phrase would have had a lot of power if stacatto: 

That sounds good, probably adding slurs will be great there!

On 5/9/2023 at 8:15 AM, Omicronrg9 said:

I marked on green what turned to be my favourite motive that you use in the right hand starting at the 3rd beat of M12 (but whose rhythm you anticipate already at the 2nd measure!) and that develops to its climax reached in the passage at M96-M99.

Well I don't notice this... Sometimes my use of motives are due to unconscious usage or laziness... I like the A minor here as it's playful and connect to 1st movement, b.47-48 when A minor is also present there!

On 5/9/2023 at 8:15 AM, Omicronrg9 said:

By the way, it seems that the score rendered badly at M96.

Yup maybe I misclick something on my IPad!!!

Thanks for your lovely review Daniel. Hopefully the next movement will be much more emotional and Spanish (?) in your point of view!

Henry

Hey Vince,

I am happy you like it!

On 5/9/2023 at 12:59 PM, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Why hello there, Henry... the infamous Henry that I hear so much about. You're the talk of the town, the word on the street, the....

sorry, I'm dumb

LoL

On 5/9/2023 at 12:59 PM, Thatguy v2.0 said:

like this piece of yours. You mentioned it's your least favorite (I won't tell you not to do this anymore since you seem insistent to do so). Just because it doesn't have heavy emotional depth doesn't make it bad. I think it's what your sonata needed. A chorale 1st mvmt, a vigorous torrent of notes for the 2nd, and a jovial 3rd mvmt seems fitting. I know the character of the 4th, so I think with what I've heard so far it's what the music needed, not necessarily what you wanted to write.

Yup I definitely agree with you on that. It's indeed my least fav. movement because it's less emotional, but it's what the music needs particulatly before the dark 4th mov which you know. I always feel like I am the servant of my music and they are just born through me, not born by me. 

On 5/9/2023 at 12:59 PM, Thatguy v2.0 said:

That said, this was really cool. It's like Bach meets the Eroica symphony. I don't have much to gripe about, but with the previous 2 movements, you could have maybe made the overall texture a bit lighter. I like what you did, but was hoping for more spots with a single line and accented with light staccato chords or something. As is, it seemed more dense than it needed to be. 

I thought it is light but you are right, it can be lighter with staccatos like you and Daniel suggest. Those heavy are more like conventional cliches used by the past Henry even when the context is not perfect for that, and I'm sure he never thought of Eroica at the time of composing the movement.

On 5/9/2023 at 12:59 PM, Thatguy v2.0 said:

agree about the comment of the chord at b.142. I don't think it was out of place necessarily, but a deceptive cadence or something along those lines might be advantageous to the music. 

Yeah when Peter and you speak about it I should have do that! But how will you do a deceptive cadence there? I would like to hear your suggestion!

On 5/9/2023 at 12:59 PM, Thatguy v2.0 said:

All in all though, wonderful piece Henry. As much as I enjoy your compositions, I get just as much excitement out of your performance and ability to bring this to life. Fantastic music, can't wait to hear all 5 movements together!

Thanks Vince! Luckily this movement is not difficult to play. The 4th movement should be out in two weeks' time, but unfortunately the 5th mov will have to wait much longer since I'm quite busy with other stuffs and I don't start practicing it. The mov can be difficult to play too!

Henry

Much has already been said about the piece.
For me, many things stand out, such as the continuous contrary movement and the feeling of fullness that is achieved with two voices (except in passages with fuller chords). Also the fluidity of the ensemble. Bravo.

11 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Yeah when Peter and you speak about it I should have do that! But how will you do a deceptive cadence there? I would like to hear your suggestion!

What about replacing the Ab major chord in measure 142 right hand with an Fb major chord while keeping the Ab in the bass?  I don't know if that would sound satisfactory at all but it's just an idea.

Hey Peter,

13 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

What about replacing the Ab major chord in measure 142 right hand with an Fb major chord while keeping the Ab in the bass?  I don't know if that would sound satisfactory at all but it's just an idea.

That's a good spark of inspiration! Right after your suggestion I have an idea: in b.141 I should have Gb and Fb instead of G and F in the melody, and in bar 142 I should have a V/iv there instead of a normal Ab major. That should make the music darker and smoother! Thx Peter 😘

Henry

sneak peak into the next movement on the pdf, looks very expansive

Hi @Luis Hernández,

On 5/11/2023 at 1:22 AM, Luis Hernández said:

Much has already been said about the piece.
For me, many things stand out, such as the continuous contrary movement and the feeling of fullness that is achieved with two voices (except in passages with fuller chords). Also the fluidity of the ensemble. Bravo

I do make sure the fullness of the harmony since it's easy to be drone in two lines, and the fluidity is always something I care very much since music is literally a temporal art. Thanks for your compliment!

Henry

Hi @PCC,

5 hours ago, PCC said:

sneak peak into the next movement on the pdf, looks very expansive

It will be a slow movement. It's the longest movement in terms of time but it's simple in structure, only an AA'Coda structure. Stay tuned and thanks for joining the forum!

Henry