Piano Sonata no.2 in A-flat Major, 4th Movement

Hi everyone! I am presenting the fourth movement of my Piano Sonata no.2 in A-flat major. The previous 3 movements are now all sorted in the post of the 1st movement one so if you are interested, go and check them out!

This is my favourite movement of the entire sonata. First it's in C sharp minor, my favourite key. Second it really has something personal in it. The structure of it is very simple:

00:03 First Part, melody in right hand and octave accompaniment in LH

04:13 Second Part. original melody to the right with added Lamentoso in RH

07:34 Coda. Is that a dark reply to the first movement?

The movement is named a "Lyrics" for me. Chinese poems are known to be lyrics, rather than long epics like those of Homer or Milton or Goethe. I'm trying to adapt the rhythm of Tang Poem, Lüshi here which contains five or seven words in each sentence with standard rhythm to recite it. It also contains many couplets. With reference to it I have a standard rhythm maintaining all over the movement and is having many couplets musically.

In the first part the LH keeps having the octave accompaniment which can be boring but for me it helps create an unsettling feeling. In the second part, the original melody in the RH of the first part is transferred to the LH, while a lamentoso is added in the right hand. The coda returns to the first part version of the meldoy, but look at the ending. Is that a dark deeply or quotation to the con delore section of the first movement, b.82-98? The tragedy uncertain there is confirmed here.

I myself feel like this movement is quite unrelated thematically to the rest of the sonata. But it's related in a different way. It represents the real hurdle in the subconscious finally emerges in front of you. The unsettling C# minor (Db minor) is hinted all over the first three movements: The con delore section (b.82-98) in first movement, that surprising Db minor cadence near the end of the second movement (which by the way is the answer of why there's agitation there), and the coda of the third movement tainted by Db minor. All prepares for this movement. 

I find this piece somewhat similar to the second movement of Schubert's D960, which is also in C sharp minor, but only after finishing this sonata. The movement for me is very dark hence very personal. I'm sure I have something dark personally and here it's expressed authentically. I literally get depressed every time after listening to this movement. How do you feel? Do you feel this movement boring or so with so slow a tempo and unchanging things? Let me know!

As usual I'm going to attach the PDF and mp3 of the movement:

Piano Sonata no.2 4th mov 26-04-2023.pdf   

(Please ignore the first three lines of p.1 as it's from 3rd movement!)

And as usual I will attach the youtube video here of the scored version of the movement. There's some delay of the visual here though LoL... Please subscribe my channel! (Self advertising LoL!!!!!!!!!)

Hope you all "enjoy" the movement! The fifth movement and the finale of the sonata will be a long way to go, as I don't start practicing it due to busy schedule and other accompanying stuff to do. See you soon!

Henry

Hi, Henry

I am really impressed with your compositions and artistically your seem to be going through a black phase where you want to express the depths of grief?

I found the piece relaxing to listen to and not as dark as your perception of it. Nothing exists, except in contrast to its opposite, and when you try to grasp anything outside of that dichotomy there's just emptiness. That sounds like some deep philosophical thought but it's not. Light without darkness won't impress anything on consciousness like the way a fish doesn't see the water.

Mozart used dissonance in one of his string quartets in a striking way so that the bright melodies that follow gleamed brighter still. It was clever AF because if you take the dark beginning away, the movement seems trivial. The idea of a contrasting intro wasn't anything new but here it is at the extreme opposite of the emotional spectrum.

Your movement is certainly dark but it's not hitting with the pathos that it could be and at times feels lost in its sadness. The repetitive bass adds an element of reassurance and stability and has an almost funeral march quality. I've never been a fan of cluster notes so low down, they ought to be used for effect rather than sustenance. The romantics enjoyed using them following beethoven but without contrast the effect is lost for me. I enjoyed the contrast of the quicker higher notes and they came with some relief. I then thought, that may be the effect you wanted to achieve, to give contrast to the finale which may be beautifully bright. 

What effect do you want the listener to have? How do you want us to feel when listening? The bass line is relaxing in it's reassuring repetitiveness and doesn't hit any anxiety buttons for me. The weight of the bass can be tiring for the listener if silence isn't introduced strategically so that the return of the bass catches your attention. 

One thing in music I've noticed is that the landscape introduced to the listener has its effect depending on what's happened before. For example, even a piece of really simple music can be striking when reaching a climax that takes one of its elements to its extreme, whether that maybe the dynamics, register, dissonance amongst consonance. If you play pp for a minute and then play f, that will impress the listener more than playing ff throughout. I never quite understood why romantics want to dazzle with brilliance sustained for so long, or a heavy bass that's unrelenting. It doesn't create the effect desired and just de-sensitises the listener. Although it can be fun to dazzle.

There are happier moments in your piece, major chords to break the minor for a while but not enough to affirm a dichotomy. The piece for me, while very clever harmonically!! Is missing direction and it may be me but there wasn't quite the harmonic sign posting that the classical era used. You know where you are in a piece because for example a pedal bass with harmony relating to the, I forgot the word, basically if you were in C major you first go to G and near the end you can play with F, if it's over a pedal it has an effect of sign posting you to the end. I hope I'm making sense with what I've been saying. 

I think your music is very clever and your playing is at a professional level, very impressive for us on a mostly amateur site like this. We are lucky to have you with your broad knowledge of music and kind encouragement. It doesn't go unnoticed. I haven't studied music theory yet, I mostly play and compose by ear so I know I have much to learn from you and others like you on here. I can only speak from a listeners perspective really.

I look forward to the last movement. I hope it ends in major! Have you heard Mozarts E minor violin sonata, the way it reaches E major after those heavy sighs, I literally cried for two days after hearing that! I felt his grief, I lost my mother too and it hit me so hard, I kept replaying it over and over. I hope you'll use light to really hit the listener after hearing minor chords for so long, you can plan it to reach a point where the music feels defeated and then God pulls you in close like comforting a child. Music can be so powerful.

Hi @Papageno,

Thanks for your detailed review! I enjoy it very much.

2 hours ago, Papageno said:

I found the piece relaxing to listen to and not as dark as your perception of it. Nothing exists, except in contrast to its opposite, and when you try to grasp anything outside of that dichotomy there's just emptiness. That sounds like some deep philosophical thought but it's not. Light without darkness won't impress anything on consciousness like the way a fish doesn't see the water.

Mozart used dissonance in one of his string quartets in a striking way so that the bright melodies that follow gleamed brighter still. It was clever AF because if you take the dark beginning away, the movement seems trivial. The idea of a contrasting intro wasn't anything new but here it is at the extreme opposite of the emotional spectrum.

I know what you mean. Just like Brahms once noted that the dissonance in Mozart's Idomeneo is more impressive than Beethoven's usage since in Mozart music dissonance are always comparing and contrasting with the passages of consonance, whereas in Beethoven's music the dissonance can appear without reason and too much. That's for sure different conception of music, which is different conception of what human is: whether human should be limiting themselves in order to achieve freedom or freeing themselves in order to achieve freedom. For me I think I don't take sides as I'm just doing what the music urges me to do.

2 hours ago, Papageno said:

Your movement is certainly dark but it's not hitting with the pathos that it could be and at times feels lost in its sadness. The repetitive bass adds an element of reassurance and stability and has an almost funeral march quality. I've never been a fan of cluster notes so low down, they ought to be used for effect rather than sustenance. The romantics enjoyed using them following beethoven but without contrast the effect is lost for me. I enjoyed the contrast of the quicker higher notes and they came with some relief. I then thought, that may be the effect you wanted to achieve, to give contrast to the finale which may be beautifully bright. 

Another buddy guy says that the movement has funeral march quality too! I've never thought of this though until you guys say this! For romantics they are more anti-enlightenment when effect is more important than ideas. The finale of the sonata will have some struggles, but I can say to you for sure it's bright and hopefully beautiful, so the persistence of mood within this movement can be viewed as a contrast within a larger framework of the sonata itself, hopefully,

2 hours ago, Papageno said:

What effect do you want the listener to have? How do you want us to feel when listening? The bass line is relaxing in it's reassuring repetitiveness and doesn't hit any anxiety buttons for me. The weight of the bass can be tiring for the listener if silence isn't introduced strategically so that the return of the bass catches your attention. 

I agree that can be tiring for the audience so I am afraid it will be boring. But it definitely is personal. At least for this whole sonata I never think what effect I want the listener to have since this sonata is a capricious product when I just do what I want. For three straight movements starting from the movement two the movement itself is quite monotonous and uniform in style and mood, while view as a whole the unchanging mood of each movement can be viewed as changing within the sonata itself.

But on the other hand does the boring quality necessarily bad? I know some maintain that music must amuse and be delightful pleasure, but for me this is not a must and it depends. For me what is fundamental is how to control the flow of time in your music. Just like in film, while the montage of Hitchcock and Godard is fascinating, the long shots of Tarkovsky and Ozu is marvelous as well even though it can be boring and unchanging.

2 hours ago, Papageno said:

I never quite understood why romantics want to dazzle with brilliance sustained for so long, or a heavy bass that's unrelenting. It doesn't create the effect desired and just de-sensitises the listener. Although it can be fun to dazzle.

Again it depends on what you want to express. 

2 hours ago, Papageno said:

There are happier moments in your piece, major chords to break the minor for a while but not enough to affirm a dichotomy. The piece for me, while very clever harmonically!! Is missing direction and it may be me but there wasn't quite the harmonic sign posting that the classical era used. You know where you are in a piece because for example a pedal bass with harmony relating to the, I forgot the word, basically if you were in C major you first go to G and near the end you can play with F, if it's over a pedal it has an effect of sign posting you to the end. I hope I'm making sense with what I've been saying. 

You definitely are making sense! For certain this movement doesn't signpost the harmony classical era used, if there's such thing as classical era. It's certainly not as functionally directed as music with clear grammatical usage of harmony, but that's what I would like to express. That directionality is something human reason wants to achieve but not always can achieve. That's what the romantics and the 20th century music means to me. I don't think of dichotomy here as I have said I just want to write capriciously here. I won't write like this now and could never write like this now as every piece is unique, but I appreciate what I've written.

2 hours ago, Papageno said:

I think your music is very clever and your playing is at a professional level, very impressive for us on a mostly amateur site like this. We are lucky to have you with your broad knowledge of music and kind encouragement. It doesn't go unnoticed. I haven't studied music theory yet, I mostly play and compose by ear so I know I have much to learn from you and others like you on here. I can only speak from a listeners perspective really.

Thank you. I don't think my playing reach a professional level, and I don't think this site is amateurish at all. Or to say in the other way round, being amateurish doesn't mean your music necessarily inferior to professional one. Music is such a great universe to contain all of us if we are willing to immerse in it, and the reward is invaluable. I don't think I have broad knowledge of music too, I just think that we learn mutually when we listen to and review each other's music. I appreciate your auditory approach very well and I can never improvise.

3 hours ago, Papageno said:

I look forward to the last movement. I hope it ends in major! Have you heard Mozarts E minor violin sonata, the way it reaches E major after those heavy sighs, I literally cried for two days after hearing that! I felt his grief, I lost my mother too and it hit me so hard, I kept replaying it over and over. I hope you'll use light to really hit the listener after hearing minor chords for so long, you can plan it to reach a point where the music feels defeated and then God pulls you in close like comforting a child. Music can be so powerful.

Yes! The finale will end in Ab major since that's the tonic! But it won't be a victory as in Beethovanian heroic fashion. It's more oriental I guess? The C# minor will be dissolved and absorbed rather than conquered there. Hopefully it makes sense.

Thanks for your reply again!

Henry

Hi Henry

This is my favorite movement so far in the sonata as well. Every time you post a new movement, I listen in order from movement 1. I just always want to view the work as a whole rather than hear and comment on this in isolation. 

First of all, all the movements fit together really nicely. I think you were very aware and conscious of what each movement needed, and I love the funeral march quality this one has. 

The section starting at b.45 is my favorite part of your entire sonata (so far!). It reminds me of Mozart's music; not in it's content or style, but I love how every note played in the RH feels like it was perfectly placed, and if you removed or changed any one of them the piece wouldn't have the same lovely quality. The melody is gorgeous and emotional. It feels like you had a lot of things to say in this section in particular. It's drenched with passion and the lamentation is overflowing. 

I never felt like the drone notes were boring. On the contrary, the preceding two movements had loads of movement. They were a roller coaster of ups and downs, and the pedal notes in this movement helped with the somber trance you put us in for a contrast. The first and fourth movements shared that same choral four part harmony type of texture, which imo brought a nice cohesiveness to the work. 

This movement indeed sounds highly personal. My favorite part of instrumental music is that we get to mask the words we're dying to say and share with others. We get to hide the actual content of our personal feelings, and instead display the raw and emotional outcome of what the content really is. Even if I don't know what it is exactly you're trying say, I get to feel the plethora of emotions you've so beautifully crafted. 

On 5/18/2023 at 7:00 PM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

The movement is named a "Lyrics" for me. Chinese poems are known to be lyrics, rather than long epics like those of Homer or Milton or Goethe. I'm trying to adapt the rhythm of Tang Poem, Lüshi here which contains five or seven words in each sentence with standard rhythm to recite it. It also contains many couplets. With reference to it I have a standard rhythm maintaining all over the movement and is having many couplets musically.

I really like this, and it's something that makes your music unique to you. I think this is what we should all strive for as composers. Combining our knowledge of music, the desires of our heart and soul, and the cultural implications we wish to share, creating a delectable harmony that only you could craft. I wouldn't have ever thought of using this form from Chinese poems, because I'm not Chinese, and I have other things to share. But that's what makes the world go 'round.

I've listened to this sonata a lot now, and I really hope you share the 5th movement soon, even if you can't have it recorded with another wonderful performance. A computer rendition would be just fine, just to give any of us following along with your progress some closure to the completeness of your work. You could always update the post later with one of those infamous Henry recordings (and give an excuse to bump your music up to the top of the forum lol).

I'm kind of sad that more people haven't commented on this so far. Yeah, it's only been a few days, but each member here knows you fairly well compared to the rest of us with the outrageously generous commenting you give to nearly everyone's music. 

You're a fantastic composer and player, Henry. Thanks for sharing this piece, as it's one of my favorites by you. Can't wait to hear the final movement!

Hey Vince, 

Thanks for such a detailed and lovely review!

10 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

First of all, all the movements fit together really nicely. I think you were very aware and conscious of what each movement needed, and I love the funeral march quality this one has. 

10 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

I never felt like the drone notes were boring. On the contrary, the preceding two movements had loads of movement. They were a roller coaster of ups and downs, and the pedal notes in this movement helped with the somber trance you put us in for a contrast. The first and fourth movements shared that same choral four part harmony type of texture, which imo brought a nice cohesiveness to the work. 

I myself think this is a free flowing one without much cohesion, but your words do provide me confidence in the coherence of the piece! I would not have thought of the movement as a Funeral March if you don't say it! Is it weird that a composer not knowing what he's composing? But maybe I just focus more onthe emotions in it.

10 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

The section starting at b.45 is my favorite part of your entire sonata (so far!). It reminds me of Mozart's music; not in it's content or style, but I love how every note played in the RH feels like it was perfectly placed, and if you removed or changed any one of them the piece wouldn't have the same lovely quality. The melody is gorgeous and emotional. It feels like you had a lot of things to say in this section in particular. It's drenched with passion and the lamentation is overflowing. 

That's a really high compliment! Again I really just write what I want here and it's definitely very personal. In fact I modified it a little after practicing this piece to have it more polished. Again I said this before, but I wrote this Sonata in a very happy mood. Maybe the lamentation is already absorbed in my heart and it's great to release it here! I do have speechless speech to say here.

10 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

This movement indeed sounds highly personal. My favorite part of instrumental music is that we get to mask the words we're dying to say and share with others. We get to hide the actual content of our personal feelings, and instead display the raw and emotional outcome of what the content really is. Even if I don't know what it is exactly you're trying say, I get to feel the plethora of emotions you've so beautifully crafted. 

This is in a personal C# minor key with personal content in it. In fact the recording is very emotional as well. I eas having my tears when recording this and had to bear it until the end. Happy to have record this that seems perfect for me.

10 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

I've listened to this sonata a lot now, and I really hope you share the 5th movement soon, even if you can't have it recorded with another wonderful performance. A computer rendition would be just fine, just to give any of us following along with your progress some closure to the completeness of your work. You could always update the post later with one of those infamous Henry recordings (and give an excuse to bump your music up to the top of the forum lol).

I'll definitely have you listen to the computer version first to see whether the ending is fine. But I will maintain the love recording here as there're already many computer versions here and having one more doesn't make it more interesting.

10 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

I'm kind of sad that more people haven't commented on this so far. Yeah, it's only been a few days, but each member here knows you fairly well compared to the rest of us with the outrageously generous commenting you give to nearly everyone's music. 

Maybe the work is more difficult and less enjoyable? It's for sure not a pleasant thing to enjoy I guess. Ofc I hope there will be more reviews no matter good or bad, but I don't review to attract other's reviews so it's fine. 

Thanks so much Vince! I'm really happy for your always generous comments on my music!

Henry

I'm not an expert in analyzing music 

But i really liked it, it's awesome, i will also listen to the other movements

Hi @44W74l4,

Welcome to the forum!

7 hours ago, 44W74l4 said:

I'm not an expert in analyzing music 

But i really liked it, it's awesome, i will also listen to the other movements

Thanks so much! This is my favourite movement of the sonata. You can also post your music here and look into othrt members' works here! Thanks for joining us!

Henry

It's a (sometimes) very sad and lyrical piano piece with an interesting chord progression. I really like it, but sometimes the chord progression may be a little bit weird or strained, and the first part with the chords is too long and static. I would have liked to hear arpeggios or just some kind of movement. The second part is also very good but rhythmically could be a little bit more varied.

Overall I like it! 🙂

One piece of advice, your recording isn't the best. Maybe you would consider buying a relatively cheap soundcard and also a relatively cheap condenser mic to record your music pieces. Or there are some very good sound recorder devices that are not too pricey and work well.

Hey @olivercomposer,

Thx for your review!

49 minutes ago, olivercomposer said:

It's a (sometimes) very sad and lyrical piano piece with an interesting chord progression. I really like it, but sometimes the chord progression may be a little bit weird or strained, and the first part with the chords is too long and static. I would have liked to hear arpeggios or just some kind of movement. The second part is also very good but rhythmically could be a little bit more varied.

Yeah the rhythm is too static sometimes, but for me the uninteresting rhythm does have something important personally haha! I'm going for unvarying rhythm in this movement so it can be boring to be honest! The rhythm is for me 1) to portray the rhythm as in Chinese Tang Poem, and 2) provides a suffocating air which is my personal thought. Your advice is of course very reasonable!!!

49 minutes ago, olivercomposer said:

Overall I like it! 🙂

Thank you!!

49 minutes ago, olivercomposer said:

One piece of advice, your recording isn't the best. Maybe you would consider buying a relatively cheap soundcard and also a relatively cheap condenser mic to record your music pieces. Or there are some very good sound recorder devices that are not too pricey and work well.

Yeah the device is bad, not even "isn't the best" haha!!! I attempted to use IPad to record for the first time, but looks like the recording quality is not that good. I should buy recording devices, but I hate for my parsimonious attitude for buying things LoL... But thx for your advice!

Thx for your appreciation!!! I'm having less confidence to my works (and the World generally) in this week and your reply does help boost me up!

Kind Regards,

Henry