Grande Valse, Duet for Violin and Piano

I've just finished a new piece today!

Here's a waltz that I had written for a competition (I didn't submit in the end, the entry fee was too costly), in Ab major. At first I had planned for it to have been for solo piano (inspired very much by Chopin's waltzes), but eventually I added a solo violin part for (at least some) more timbral variety. Would appreciate some good criticism: this the first waltz I've written, and also the first in my (obviously limited) oeuvre to 'explore' the circle of fifths.

Hope you enjoy, and let me know what you think! 🙂 

I am not able to listen to it yet but the score looks impressive.

Unfortunately I have an immediate basic critique, I played the cello and I believe some sections in the violin part is simply unplayable with the standard violin tuning.

I will see if I have the chance to listen to it later today.

6 minutes ago, PCC said:

I will see if I have the chance to listen to it later today.

 

Looking forward to it, @PCC!

There are a few harmonies I am not familiar with in the beginning after the intro that I personally find clashing, but maybe that's one me.

Something tells me you master the Piano but not the violin family of instruments. The amount of details you put into the lines shows (notwithstanding the unplayability I mentioned). Would you consult a violinist for advice on how to write for the violin?

And in my view, the violin family of instruments are primarily melodic instruments, meaning you want them to play a single line most of the time. Chords can be used with great effect but only when the time is right, especially since you have the Piano to back up (unlike solo pieces like Bach's). I just think the amount of chords you gave the violin really distracts from the impressive Piano parts.

I think I would really enjoy the piece if I am being less distracted.
Thanks for sharing your music!

21 minutes ago, PCC said:

Something tells me you master the Piano but not the violin family of instruments.

You flatter me, @PCC. I've only been taking my piano lessons 'seriously' for two years!

I'll admit, however, that I really haven't mastered writing for the violin at all. Indeed, this is the first composition I've ever written for a duet involving the violin and piano, and I am almost certain that there are probably too many little mistakes in my writing to count off here one by one. I asked one of my friends who plays classical violin for advice on this piece; she still hasn't responded yet, so I can't make the changes to the violin part as readily as I'd like to. 

26 minutes ago, PCC said:

Chords can be used with great effect but only when the time is right, especially since you have the Piano to back up (unlike solo pieces like Bach's). I just think the amount of chords you gave the violin really distracts from the impressive Piano parts.

As I previously mentioned, alas is the plight of the pianist-composer who doesn't know how to write for other instruments 😭 I've seen chords used a lot in violin concerti pieces (Vieuxtemps v.c. 5 and Saint-Saens' Introduction and Rondo Cappricioso come to mind), so I thought using more would equate to a more vast textural soundscape, much like how an 'orchestral sound' could be 'achieved' by using big chords on the piano. I'll take your criticism into account; if possible, could you maybe give some specific pointers where I should/should not keep the chords on the violin? If that takes too long, then some general points work fine too.

Also: are the thirds fine? I hope they are.

Thank you so much 😄!

An interesting piece.
I don't master the violin at all but it is true that there are some scary chords here.

The interplay between the two instruments is nice.  There are a few moments when the piano plays chords in the lower part of its range that are very poorly defined because the notes are too close together, and in that deep layer it doesn't work well.

I'm quite busy with non music life so I guess I'll try. Btw I most certainly would not be able to play that Piano part for learning just two years. Then again idk, I learn the Piano from a young age.

The elephant in the room is A-flat major isn't really a "violin" key, so to say. That isn't to say you can't write for the violin in A-flat at all, but the extent of chords you are using is choking the violin with this key. One thing that is often neglected is the concept of "overtones", similar to why you would want to use the Piano sustain pedal not for the sustain effect, but for the richer sound. In the key of A-flat the chords seem to add nothing to this.

I'm not a violinist so I am not qualified to give you the exact details. But if you have a violinist available you should really ask him/her how to write chords for it, in that case I would actually suggest you remove all the violin chords first, put an asterisk at every moment you want chords, then ask a string player how it could be done.

But just in case, let me try to point out some things,
all the really big chords (triple+ stops). Please bear in mind the standard tuning of the violin is GDAE. This means the lowest note has to be at least G or above, second lowest note D or above, etc.
bar 19. no. you can't harmonic a e-flat on the violin unless you do it artificially
bar 99, it's not entirely impossible to play a long note arco then trying to pizz with the left hand, but my question is "why?", the passage does not look or sound very virtuostic, it looks to be it's just there for the sake of it.
I also noticed there is barely any slurring of the notes. The violin is supposed to be able to play long lines of melodies with great sweetness, use it!

Hi @Awsumerguy,

I think @PCC is definitely qualified to point out those issues! Great job pointing them out! The triple and qradruple stoppings in fact looks scary like @Luis Hernández said. I will rather go safe and cancel out those multiple stops if I'm not sure of them, since I'm not a violinist myself. 

I here invite our king of waltzes, @David_DLM here!

For the piano part, b.70 and all of the semiquaver passages will be really difficult to play due to the fast tempo. B.128-129 and 261-267 are really difficult too, you can look at similar passage in the opening movement of Beethoven's op.111 Piano Sonata.

The piece itself is pleasant enough though. Just beware of the playability issue and this will be a great piece. Thanks for sharing!

Henry

Thanks Henry for the encouragement, but I don’t have anything much to offer beyond ABRSM grade 8. Actually are there violinists on this forum?

I will write a few more things since I am on transit. I hope the following comments won’t sound too harsh, please note I really enjoyed the grandiosity of your piece!

For starters, do you think your work will stand if you just move everything by a semitone up so it becomes A major? A major is a much easier key to work with for violin music.

Secondly (sorry it’s about triple+ stops again), triple/quad stops are generally played arpeggiated when bowed (there are options when it comes to pizz), meaning we bow the lower two notes first then tenths of a second later we bow the upper two notes. You can make a case for non-arpeggiated triple stops if the music is fast and loud (e.g. Shostakovich’s sonata for piano and cello second movement), but most certainly not quad stops. The implication is you have to give time for the string player to roll the chords.

Anyway, I have a painful suggestion, just remove all the double/triple/quad stops for now, see if eventually you can add a few back later, if at all. There are quite a number of places where I personally think multi stops serve little to no purpose.

(hmm🤔 should I ask you to look at my cello solo sonata I wrote years ago on noteflight (lol I lost the logins)? It’s more of an exercise composition piece now that I look back into it and I never actually was able to play it myself, but it’s strings writing nonetheless I guess)

Thank you so, so much for all the advice you've given me, everyone! It's probably the most helpful criticism I've ever gotten on how to write for the violin, and I think you all bring up really good points about my violin writing so far. 

@Henry Ng Tsz Kiu and @PCC: I've heeded your advice, and gotten rid of the triple/quadruple stops. I thought they'd just sound nice as virtuosic filigree, but now that I've gotten rid of them the whole piece honestly just flows better (more or less)! I tried to focus a little more attention towards the violin when it plays the melody, so let's hope that's worked out in my favour. I kept some of the fast runs and the double stops, but I think that's okay since no one's brought it up yet (lol). I hope you can notice the difference!

1 hour ago, PCC said:

For starters, do you think your work will stand if you just move everything by a semitone up so it becomes A major? A major is a much easier key to work with for violin music.

I've given it a shot: I transposed up a semitone the moment I got back into working on the piece after discovering the preference violinists have for certain keys. I do admit that the violin does almost sound 'better' in A major (despite using MuseScore's playback feature), but I've got two main concerns with the key change: 1. The piece just sounds less grandiose in A major compared to Ab (to the point where I've considered a name change), and feels totally different despite only being in neighbouring keys; and 2. The notation looks to be an absolute nightmare to clean up. I've attached the screenshot of one of the passages where the notation seems to have gone totally overboard with the accidentals, and a file of the waltz (now) in A major. For the time being, I'll keep the key in Ab unless I manage to find some way to clean up this mess. 

Again, thank you so much for the advice!

notation is not too much of a difficult thing, just move everything up and down and trial and error, a bit tedious but nothing impossible

Do you find A-flat major more grandiose because it's more of a "Piano" key, so to say? Many famous piano pieces are in A-flat, such as Chopin's polonaise, Pathetique second movement. Henry's recently posted sonata as well.

But if you really want A-flat major to work for the violin you really need to find a violinist to help with the parts, I'm out of ideas on this page. Otherwise you might consider keeping A-flat key but make the Piano part shine more.
I guess what I am trying to say is certain instruments lend themselves to certain keys. Most violin concertos are in the key of D, I recently learned.

Then again take my words with pinches of salt, I haven't offer a lot of my own pieces here on YC and I'm already ranting lmao

6 minutes ago, PCC said:

notation is not too much of a difficult thing, just move everything up and down and trial and error, a bit tedious but nothing impossible

Do you find A-flat major more grandiose because it's more of a "Piano" key, so to say? Many famous piano pieces are in A-flat, such as Chopin's polonaise, Pathetique second movement. Henry's recently posted sonata as well.

Again shines my pianistic tendencies! 😩

I was inspired to write this piece mostly because of Chopin's first two Waltzes, op. 18 and op. 34 no. 1. As you may be able to tell, both are also titled 'Grande Valse' and have flat key signatures, so I suppose that's where my attachment to Ab major came from. I do like the sound of A major, though: if it is that much more convenient to have a violin play in A major, then I suppose there's no fault in switching to it. It gives it a totally different vibe, too (if you'd forgo my Gen-Z language for a sec there): it makes it sound more homely, almost. I'll think up a name change one way or another to suit the new mood. Thanks for the advice, @PCC!

Hi Awsumerguy,

Pretty much has been said by our peers here, and my criticism is still primarily about your violin writing. My sister plays the violin, so I know a little bit about writing for the violin and may be able to give you some insight:

1. Notes in downbeats (especially if they begin a phrase) and accented notes or chords are usually played with the down-bow stroke. For example, in bar 104, the B-flats should be down-bowed instead of up-bowed. The same goes for bar 127: while you mentioned con forza in the violin part, it is recommended that the accented B-flat be down-bowed.
2. Some triple and quadruple stops may be unplayable, as mentioned by PCC and Henry. For example, the chord in bar 209 may not be practical to play because it would require the fingers to be placed awkwardly on the fingerboard. Also, the F major chord in bar 175 is utterly unplayable because the middle C cannot be played on the D string.
3. Like what PCC mentioned, there are very few slurs in the violin part. Notes under a slur are played in a single bow stroke, and I suggest you use it for expressiveness when writing for the violin. For example, consider applying it on the sixteenth-note runs in bars 127-128.
4. When writing for a musical instrument, it is crucial to understand its limitations and common usage, such as keys. For example, musical keys such as G, D, A, and E major are well-suited for the violin because they are based on the instrument's standard tuning (G, D, A, and E). While playing pieces in A-flat major on the violin is possible, its usage is limited because the A-flat major scale contains very few open string notes: only G. Therefore, this makes flat keys most suitable for slow and expressive pieces that involve the violin.
5. I am pretty confused about bars 19-20, 105-106, 116-117, and similar passages in the violin part. While it is a tie, both notes are played on different strokes, making them sound separate. I am not sure how violinists would play these passages.
6. Lastly, as PCC said, the E-flat in bar 19 cannot be played as a natural harmonic. Although harmonics are a great way to change the instrument's timbre, it is essential to research playing harmonics on the violin, which includes natural and artificial harmonics. For example, the harmonics that can be naturally played on the E string (fundamental note: E4) are E5, B5, E6, G#6, B6, and so on (notes are named according to the scientific pitch notation).

This pretty much summarizes what our peers have said. Anyway, thank you for sharing this piece!

Carl Koh Wei Hao

P.S. By the way, A-flat major is one of my favourite keys!

1 hour ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

Hi Awsumerguy,

1. Notes in downbeats (especially if they begin a phrase) and accented notes or chords are usually played with the down-bow stroke. For example, in bar 104, the B-flats should be down-bowed instead of up-bowed. The same goes for bar 127: while you mentioned con forza in the violin part, it is recommended that the accented B-flat be down-bowed.
2. Some triple and quadruple stops may be unplayable, as mentioned by PCC and Henry. For example, the chord in bar 209 may not be practical to play because it would require the fingers to be placed awkwardly on the fingerboard. Also, the F major chord in bar 175 is utterly unplayable because the middle C cannot be played on the D string.
3. Like what PCC mentioned, there are very few slurs in the violin part. Notes under a slur are played in a single bow stroke, and I suggest you use it for expressiveness when writing for the violin. For example, consider applying it on the sixteenth-note runs in bars 127-128.
4. When writing for a musical instrument, it is crucial to understand its limitations and common usage, such as keys. For example, musical keys such as G, D, A, and E major are well-suited for the violin because they are based on the instrument's standard tuning (G, D, A, and E). While playing pieces in A-flat major on the violin is possible, its usage is limited because the A-flat major scale contains very few open string notes: only G. Therefore, this makes flat keys most suitable for slow and expressive pieces that involve the violin.
5. I am pretty confused about bars 19-20, 105-106, 116-117, and similar passages in the violin part. While it is a tie, both notes are played on different strokes, making them sound separate. I am not sure how violinists would play these passages.
6. Lastly, as PCC said, the E-flat in bar 19 cannot be played as a natural harmonic. Although harmonics are a great way to change the instrument's timbre, it is essential to research playing harmonics on the violin, which includes natural and artificial harmonics. For example, the harmonics that can be naturally played on the E string (fundamental note: E4) are E5, B5, E6, G#6, B6, and so on (notes are named according to the scientific pitch notation).

Thanks for the detailed critique, @Carl Koh Wei Hao! I looked through most of the examples you've given on the bits I should change, and it seems my changes were more or less on the mark: the unplayable harmonic at b. 19, the triple/quadruple stops on b.s 179 and 203, etc. I fixed by either removing or replacing some notes and making them double stops.

It seems that the key change was rather necessary regardless of whether or not some sections are actually playable, and I've thankfully grown to quite like the sound of this piece as it stands now. I'll look into changing the bowing and adding the slur lines and phrasing sometime tomorrow, as it's nearly midnight where I'm from and I'm getting rather tired 😪 

I'll try and get the finished product on here as soon as I can tomorrow!

1 hour ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

P.S. By the way, A-flat major is one of my favourite keys!

P.S. You the man yo 💪🤝

Here's the final product! I think it's at least a little more playable now than it was before, and I've grown to love this new key signature. I hope I didn't go too overboard with the slur lines! 😅

@Carl Koh Wei Hao, @PCC, @Luis Hernández, and @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu, thank you so much for giving me advice and helping me complete this piece! I owe you all one.

Hey @Awsumerguy,

I do see that you reduce those triple and quarduple stoppings! I don't know whether the quick double stoppings can be easily played; however I will wait for @Carl Koh Wei Hao to comment on this part haha!

Beware of the accidentals! In b.14-20, Eb should be D#, FB should be E and all those flats should be enharmonic sharps! B. 42 should be D# and b. 44 should D#, D natural C# and B#! Just make sure to check the accidentals after transpositions!

I will use F# major in b.175 personally since it's more sharp keys here, but that's not a necessity.

The piano is still super hard though haha!

17 hours ago, PCC said:

Do you find A-flat major more grandiose because it's more of a "Piano" key, so to say? Many famous piano pieces are in A-flat, such as Chopin's polonaise, Pathetique second movement. Henry's recently posted sonata as well.

Wow thanks so much for noting my piece in other member's post haha! I choose A-flat major for that sonata since it's contemplative.

Thanks for your update!

Henry

1 hour ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Beware of the accidentals! In b.14-20, Eb should be D#, FB should be E and all those flats should be enharmonic sharps! B. 42 should be D# and b. 44 should D#, D natural C# and B#! Just make sure to check the accidentals after transpositions!

Darn it! Despite all my efforts trying to spot out those stray accidentals, I've come up short on some 😰. I'll clear those up real quick, thanks for the reminder! I would have totally missed all of those.

2 minutes ago, Awsumerguy said:

Darn it! Despite all my efforts trying to spot out those stray accidentals, I've come up short on some 😰. I'll clear those up real quick, thanks for the reminder! I would have totally missed all of those.

Haha don't worry! Sometimes you will miss details if you're in a rush! I do that often!!🤣

Hi @Awsumerguy,

5 hours ago, Awsumerguy said:

Here's the final product! I think it's at least a little more playable now than it was before, and I've grown to love this new key signature. I hope I didn't go too overboard with the slur lines!

This version is definitely an improvement from the previous one. Changing the key from A-flat major to A major has brightened up the character of the waltz. However, I want to mention the following issues:

1. Playing the notes in bars 29-32 with a single bow stroke may be less practical. At mezzo forte, the bow speed is expected to be high, and you may need more bow strokes to play those notes. The same goes for bars 37-40 in the violin part. Here's a better bowing for bars 29-44: notice that the note at the start of each four-bar phrase is always down-bowed.
2. The double stops in bar 136 are unplayable because the B cannot be played on the D string. However, the double stops in bar 135 can be played: D on the G string and F-sharp on the D string. I hope this gives you an idea about double stops.

Regarding Henry's concern about whether the quick double stops can be played, I think this should not be a problem for well-trained violinists. However, the alternating thirds in bars 72-73 may not be easy to play at this tempo.

Carl Koh Wei Hao

2 hours ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

Playing the notes in bars 29-32 with a single bow stroke may be less practical. At mezzo forte, the bow speed is expected to be high, and you may need more bow strokes to play those notes. The same goes for bars 37-40 in the violin part. 

The double stops in bar 136 are unplayable because the B cannot be played on the D string. However, the double stops in bar 135 can be played: D on the G string and F-sharp on the D string. I hope this gives you an idea about double stops.

Got it: I fixed the bowing on the passages you mentioned. I thought my intuitions weren't well-founded at first: I thought about putting up/down bow markings where you specified, but I worried that might be imposing too much of my inexperience with bow changes on the violinist so I got rid of it. 

For the double stops in b. 136, do you mean the high B or the lower B with the G? If you mean the latter, then is it better for me to remove the double stop entirely? Or is it possible for me to use some other note instead of B (I was thinking using D)? 

2 hours ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

a single bow stroke

 

as if string players won't decide for themselves lol jk I just wanted to point out in reality, no matter what you write string players will try to find ways around it, so yes write in the details but don't get flustered too much

11 minutes ago, PCC said:

as if string players won't decide for themselves lol jk I just wanted to point out in reality, no matter what you write string players will try to find ways around it, so yes write in the details but don't get flustered too much

 

Good to know! I don't have much experience writing for strings in general, but knowing that they'll probably find a suitable compromise gives me confidence in my writing anyhow 😉 

1 hour ago, PCC said:

I just wanted to point out in reality, no matter what you write string players will try to find ways around it, so yes write in the details but don't get flustered too much

True. I have seen concert violinists break the rules, and they do not entirely follow what's written on the score. Music is an art of expression; of course, musicians are free to interpret the piece at their discretion.

1 hour ago, Awsumerguy said:

If you mean the latter, then is it better for me to remove the double stop entirely? Or is it possible for me to use some other note instead of B (I was thinking using D)?

It is entirely up to you: you are the composer! You may remove the double stop or pick another note that works best with the harmony. It should be playable on the D string.

48 minutes ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

It should be playable on the D string.

I've decided to play a D double stop with G. I'm guessing it should be playable on the D string 😅

Thankfully, its effect isn't incredibly apparent on the structure of the music as a whole. I wish there'd be some feature on MuseScore that would point that out, or something. That way I wouldn't have to be called out on rudimentary violin errors like this (lol)

Aside from those little technical faults, are there any other things you think I could fix @Carl Koh Wei Hao? The structure, themes, development and so on: is there anything I could probably improve on?  I probably won't be adding it to the piece, but I think it'd be good advice to keep in mind for when writing other music things (I was thinking about writing a Simfonietta for a school project). Thanks!

30 minutes ago, Awsumerguy said:

Aside from those little technical faults, are there any other things you think I could fix @Carl Koh Wei Hao? The structure, themes, development and so on: is there anything I could probably improve on?  I probably won't be adding it to the piece, but I think it'd be good advice to keep in mind for when writing other music things (I was thinking about writing a Simfonietta for a school project). Thanks!

Structure-wise, there are things that I really enjoy: first, the introduction is very engaging, which immediately draws the audience's attention. Second, the main theme is simple yet memorable, and you have done an excellent job setting up the atmosphere! The title "Grande Valse" fits well with the music's overall mood.

However, the section between the main themes (bars 47-140) contains materials heard only once. Besides, after the C major section, where the main theme is replayed (bars 141-158), the melodies that follow are also previously unheard. So, you may consider repeating these themes to make the structure more organized. Nevertheless, the development from bar 159 onwards, characterized by frequent modulations, is well-executed. Also, the coda section is written very well, effectively concluding the music.

Overall, you have done a great job composing this waltz; your efforts really pay off!