symphony 2nd Movement Drafting - Symphony in F minor

(There are three first movement drafts on this thread, and the first movement has been posted here for feedback,

 for second movement drafts scroll down)

Hi!

I am writing this "Symphonia Triumphalis" (Triumphant Symphony) and I decided to share the draft of the intro+expo. Some possible feedback I'd like to get:

• Did you like the piece personally overall? I would be glad if you highlighted your favorites and least favorites.
• What did you think of the orchestration?
• What did you think of my use of motives and themes?
• Any other feedback you'd like to give.
• Suggestions for the dev or the recap - some things you think could work.Symphonia Triumphalis.pdf  

   

This has some great musical ideas that are very well developed and varied!  I think the orchestration in the very beginning is too sparse with just solo horn and flute without any kind of backing.  If this were mine I would put some kind of padding instrumentation in the background at least like possibly high strings (that's quite a common trick to use high string harmonics to set the stage for foreground material - a background that is quite often eerie or foreboding and sets the expectation that something will be exposited).  I like the themes you used and how you treat them!  When you double the horn melody with clarinets at measure 17 (and this might be a matter of taste) I think it would have been more effective to have a brass chorale with trombones included an octave lower on that melody and trumpet doubling an octave higher as well.  Right now the sections seem bare-bones - I think you've effectively set down your ideas in an orchestral sketch but it doesn't sound "full".  The other extreme which you should watch out for is to double everything too heavily and make everything into a full orchestral chorale, which I'm not suggesting you do either.  The trill in the winds is also a very "bare" idea without much support.  You try to give it some body by having the timpani mimic the rhythm underneath.  I think you could stand to have all the strings double that trill in octaves throughout the whole range of the string orchestra.  Strings can sound quite strong even if they're doubled by using the same pitch class throughout the whole string orchestra.

On a side note I wonder how this would sound if it were rendered using Musesounds instead of the MS Basic soundfonts you're using here.  That could also help make it sound much more realistic (although I am personally biased in favor of Musesounds and MS4 even if it is still a bit finicky).

About the character of the music - to me it doesn't quite sound triumphant.  I perceive a sense of dread to the music with only a few phrases giving contrast by introducing some lightness.  Thanks for sharing this symphonic sketch and I'm looking forward to your progress on this piece!

4 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

 

4 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

On a side note I wonder how this would sound if it were rendered using Musesounds instead of the MS Basic soundfonts you're using here

Musescore doesn't work well with them... It creates delays, un-tuned pitches, and won't play some very high or very low notes.

Oh and about brass - this is personal taste, but I think the trombones come only when there's a chorale, or to imitate one.

Hmm actually, maybe it'd work...

Oh and by the way, it'd take me some time to come back for another draft of this because I'm going way too well with the other symphony (I'm doing two at the same time because I have some very different moods everytime I'm writing and I can't help but emulate them in)

So here's a second draft of the exposition.

Replaced the introduction totally, changed the transaction, changed the instrumentation, changed the codetta.

Also got rid of the "Triumphalis" part and I'm gonna give in to the dread of it in the development.

And last - I used Musesounds this time.

Specific question I thought about - does the long note between the second theme and the codetta with the brass arpeggios makes it seem too sectional? What if I took the whole codetta and moved it to one bar earlier so that it continues the second theme immediately?Symphony in F minor.pdf

Nice job!  I like this updated version even better!  It's no secret that I am in favor of all the changes you decided to make to this piece and I like how you replaced the trills with those runs with turns inside of them - well done!  To me the runs could have maybe been given even more body by including the violas starting on the F an octave lower, but you're the ultimate arbiter of whether you want to do that or not.

15 hours ago, Beethoven is God said:

Specific question I thought about - does the long note between the second theme and the codetta with the brass arpeggios makes it seem too sectional? What if I took the whole codetta and moved it to one bar earlier so that it continues the second theme immediately?

I think it works well the way it is because it gives the previous phrase space and finishes the phrase before beginning a new one.  This is in contrast to the phrase ending in measure 38 which uses elision, where the end of the previous phrase is actually the beginning of the next at the same time (the 16th bar of the 1st theme is also the 1st bar of another reiteration of the 1st theme but in the trombones - this works because different instruments play the various different fragments in different registers creating an interesting musical interplay and canonic imitation and also allowing them to breathe and the music itself to breathe as well.)  But if you had done this kind of elision in measure 61, it would have sounded like the previous phrase was just cut off.  Also, the horns and bassoons wouldn't get a break from playing.

This symphony is coming along quite nicely!  It's definitely out of the "orchestral sketch" phase of production imo.  I'm stoked to hear how you develop it!  Thanks for sharing!

Hey @Beethoven is God,

I only listen to the updated version and I like it. I love in your introduction to dynamic contrast combined with the contrast of register. Maybe lowing an octave for the cello and double basses with be great for all the contrasting p passages but that's personal. Maybe adding a bass trombone there will help too, but again it's personal. I like the unison you use throughout the introduction as it makes it less full and hence less directional.

For the sonata proper, will you also have the 2nd violins and violas to backup 1st violin in b.26-27 and 29-30? The strings seems weak to me under the brasses. But I like the energy in it. I like your transition too, and it's surprising you are moving to C major rather than C minor.

I feel like the 2nd subject too short. For me it's divided into sections: b.47-53, b.54-61, and b.62 to 73 for the codetta. I feel like the struggle between C major and minor in the first two phrases is not enough for the beautiful triumph and fanfare of the codetta. I think you can at least add one more contrasting theme after b.61 in C minor, before getting into the triumphant codetta. I love your codetta!

17 hours ago, Beethoven is God said:

Specific question I thought about - does the long note between the second theme and the codetta with the brass arpeggios makes it seem too sectional? What if I took the whole codetta and moved it to one bar earlier so that it continues the second theme immediately?

1 hour ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I think it works well the way it is because it gives the previous phrase space and finishes the phrase before beginning a new one.  This is in contrast to the phrase ending in measure 38 which uses elision, where the end of the previous phrase is actually the beginning of the next at the same time (the 16th bar of the 1st theme is also the 1st bar of another reiteration of the 1st theme but in the trombones - this works because different instruments play the various different fragments in different registers creating an interesting musical interplay and canonic imitation and also allowing them to breathe and the music itself to breathe as well.)  But if you had done this kind of elision in measure 61, it would have sounded like the previous phrase was just cut off.  Also, the horns and bassoons wouldn't get a break from playing.

For me I go for an elision given how excited this movement is, as in the 1st movement of Haydn's Farewell Symphony. I do think it seems breakoff with the second theme. If you add a contrasting theme between the original second theme and codetta, I think Peter's breathing issue can be saved by adding a new intervening theme. Even if you would like to retain the bar, you can at least keep the motion going by having crescendos and upward appreggios instead of a static minim to keep the pace going. And actually I don't agree with Peter's opinion of having the previous phrase cutting off by having an elision, since for me having a cut off there will push the climax even further and thus the tension can be greater to be solved by the fanfare codetta. That's my opinion.

Thx for sharing!

Henry

I've read your comments, thank you very much!

I will double those runs in the VlnII and Va.

As for the second theme - I'm currently considering a repeat of the C major part, but this time the whole string section does what was once the lower part, this time in forte, and instead of a one note pickup, a triplet (G-A-B-C and B-C-D-E, all parts div.). Meanwhile the brass do the sixteenths. And I'll see how I can make the connections smoother and more excited. without making it too rushed.

Third draft here (this was real quick, because I already had the idea hatching in mind):Symphony in F minor.pdf

I thought the arpeggios in the codetta were too much in the background, so I tried revising the orchestration, so after a few revisions and a little help from my friends, here is draft 3.1 (it doesn't deserve it's own new number, not a drastic change):

Symphony in F minor.pdf

So, started working on the second movement (the Celesta staff is there because the Glockenspiel changed to Celesta at this movement). This is a Theme and Variations movement, and this is the theme.

Changes in instrumentation this movement: Glockenspiel->Celesta, Ob. II changes to English Horn for some parts (as you can see, the movement has an English Horn solo very close to the start), Flute II changes to Alto Flute for some parts.