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Posted

Hello people!  Late last year I helped organize and host "The Tortoise and the Hare" Young Composers Instrumental Music Composition Competition and now I've finally had the time to write a piece in that theme as well!  I've picked Bassoon for representing the Tortoise, Piccolo for the Hare and Solo Violin for the Fox.  I didn't intend for this to be a fully exhaustive set of variations on each theme - only to allow me to characterize each personality in the fable to the best of my ability.  I've also tried to follow the fable in the form of my piece which goes as follows:

0:23 - A - Enter Tortoise
0:46 - B - Enter Hare
1:04 - C - Hare mocks Tortoise
1:20 - D - Enter Fox
1:36 - E - Tortoise & Hare agree to Race
1:58 - F - The Race Ensues !
2:09 - G - Hare tires & falls asleep
2:17 - H - Tortoise hurries
2:34 - I - Tortoise passes Hare
2:51 - J - Tortoise tires
3:02 - K - Fox spots Tortoise
3:13 - L - Hare awakes and hurries
3:30 - M - Tortoise wins!

Let me know what you think!  I welcome your critiques, suggestions and observations!

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  • Like 5
Posted

This piece is so expressive! It's like a complete 180 from the Etude I helped record for you (for my YouTube channel). If you had better samples, this almost might be hard to determine that it is a midi. Great job on the output.

As far as the composition, this is a perfect example of how to write music to represent a situation, and I think the opening pizzicato intro was a great way to start the race.

The beginning section almost sound a little like Tchaikovsky, but then then you get into your own voice immediately afterwards. Love the part where the hare takes a nap. I got lost in the timestamps but I knew immediately that this was nap time. This part here actually sounds a little like Tchaikovsky too, really cool!

Overall, I'm actually impressed by your midi output and rendering. It seems like you are starting to pay more attention to dynamics. And wow, it really makes a tremendous difference in your music output!

  • Like 2
Posted

Hey Peter,

This piece is so funny to listen with and full of characters and details, and the level of depiction in the music is always not what I can do as I am more used to composing absolute music.

For the introduction it really sets the funny tune of the music with the pizz., and especially that German sixth pizz. and forced fortissimo with no reason at all LoL! I also like how use introduce the accompaniment first before the bassoon melody, like a Bach cantata or the beginning of Bee's Eroica Variations or Mahler's Symphony no.2 or great pieces in general LoL. Bassoon is a great choice for the tortoise! I always find the timbre of it funny in some pieces of music, while it can also be sinister like the tortoise here!

The use of piccolo for the hare is of course great, but what I love most in B section is that you use whole tone scale to depict the quickness and brainlessness of the hare! Whole tone scales provides no definite destination, just like the hare doesn't know what it's doing here! So humorous here! Section C is so funny as your music really creates the image of the hare teasing the tortoise and I really would like to hit that hare!

Very nice counterpoint in section E! The three themes of each of the characters match perfectly here with their own distinctive characteristic even though the tempo is homogenous here. Btw, is the falling chromatic for the hare's theme signifying its defeat and the ascending chromatic for the tortoise, even if it's slow, signify its win?

Section I for me reminds me of the passage in Tcahikovsky's Symphony no.4 with the quick falling semitones, but of course in a very different context:

The ending is nice too with once again the combination of the three themes! Just maybe for me a little bit less coda-like even though you have raised the key to a semitone higher. Maybe adding a scene the hare is crying and tortoise laughing makes the story longer? But nonetheless this is a great piece. Thx for sharing and love to see your new work here Peter!

Henry

  • Like 1
Posted
22 minutes ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

This piece is so funny to listen with and full of characters and details, and the level of depiction in the music is always not what I can do as I am more used to composing absolute music.

You should try writing some programmatic music!  You could try this fable or any of the other competition themes already used!  It's really very fun to do imo.

24 minutes ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

For the introduction it really sets the funny tune of the music with the pizz., and especially that German sixth pizz. and forced fortissimo with no reason at all LoL!

Thanks!  I think, since the key here is A minor, a German 6th would be F, A, C, D# which doesn't occur here.  it would be a German 6th if the key was D minor though because the Bb and G# would resolve nicely to A7 or D minor 6/4.  I never thought though that the fortissimo tremolo in the beginning was without reason - I thought it was a good dramaturgical reason to prepare the entrance of the Tortoise (or later on to anticipate the suspense of the beginning of the race).

29 minutes ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Btw, is the falling chromatic for the hare's theme signifying its defeat and the ascending chromatic for the tortoise, even if it's slow, signify its win?

I never thought about it that way but I guess it does work like that!  When I wrote the Tortoises' theme I was thinking of how the Tortoises' head slowly peeks out from inside its shell and I came up with the rising chromatic line from that.  When I wrote the Hare's descending chromatic line I was mostly just trying to find the easiest way to depict the Hare's snoring and sleeping (in a kind of cartoonish way).

32 minutes ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

The ending is nice too with once again the combination of the three themes! Just maybe for me a little bit less coda-like even though you have raised the key to a semitone higher. Maybe adding a scene the hare is crying and tortoise laughing makes the story longer?

LoL - any ideas on how to depict the Hare's crying musically?  And the Tortoise seems too dignified a character to laugh at the Hare's misfortune - it's the Hare that laughs at the Tortoise because it's so conceited and demeaning.  But that's just my take on the characters.  Thanks for your review Henry!

Peter

  • Haha 1
Posted
1 hour ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

You should try writing some programmatic music!  You could try this fable or any of the other competition themes already used!  It's really very fun to do imo.

Haha maybe I will write one in the future, but that's not my interest now.

1 hour ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

LoL - any ideas on how to depict the Hare's crying musically?  And the Tortoise seems too dignified a character to laugh at the Hare's misfortune - it's the Hare that laughs at the Tortoise because it's so conceited and demeaning.  But that's just my take on the characters.

Maybe the piccolo uses flutter tone to symbolize the hare's growling and shrieking after the defeat? And then the piccolo falls down to reach the low D to admit the defeat or so. The tortoise laughing may be presented just with repeated notes of the bassoon in its lowest register since it will be the loudest and most sinister haha.

I always imagined the story when I was young that ends up with the tortoise pretending it was slow to fool the hare, or despite the tortoise giving 200% energy the hare easily defeats it to fool the tortoise and show how futile the tortoise's struggle is, just like an Existentialism story like the Sisyphus. 

  • Like 1
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Hi Peter,

I like how you've painted a vivid tone picture with this piece.

Think you made the right choice to write 'frolicking' in English instead of Italian!

Just wanted to ask with the glissandi in the piccolo, whether the first note should always represent the full duration of the glissando?

I've sometimes seen them written with rests in the middle (or even with invisible rests).

Also wondering what sample libraries you're using in this piece?

Alex

Edited by Alex Weidmann
  • Like 1
Posted
9 hours ago, Alex Weidmann said:

Just wanted to ask with the glissandi in the piccolo, whether the first note should always represent the full duration of the glissando?

I've sometimes seen them written with rests in the middle (or even with invisible rests).

I've never seen rests in the middle of glissandi.  Maybe you're thinking of scoops or fall-offs or slide-guitar techniques where the destination of the glissando is not specified and is implied to be about a whole step (as far as I know but I could be wrong).  When writing a glissando in Musescore you must first select the two notes which will serve as the beginning of the glissando and the destination of the glissando.  And yes, the duration of the first note is usually the duration of the glissando to the second note which could also, either be sustained or quickly released.

9 hours ago, Alex Weidmann said:

Also wondering what sample libraries you're using in this piece?

I've written this piece entirely in Musescore 4 using Musesounds.  I've used Musesounds in combination with BBCSO before by exporting an incomplete mp3 file from Musescore and importing a midi of just the tracks I wanted to substitute with a different sample patch into Reaper, but I didn't have to do that for this piece.

Thanks for listening and for your review!

Peter

  • Like 1
Posted
11 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I've never seen rests in the middle of glissandi. 

Here's a few examples I've found.

They may just be notated incorrectly?

One problem is how do you notate a gliss. that continues beyond the end of a measure?

Or where the duration cannot be represented by one note, and requires a tied pair.

 

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  • Like 1
Posted

Hi @PeterthePapercomPoser! It's always enjoy seeing your works on here, and this one is no exception. I really liked your clever use of motives to represent each character. I particularly liked the exchange that takes place at C. I can very easily imagine the hare mocking the tortoise here. Throughout the piece there are many other "conversations" such as this that are just as effective.

I have a couple of ideas for constructive feedback:

  • I noticed a lot of the time the piccolo and bassoon are doubled in the Vln1 and Cello respectively. I think if maybe you had a few cases where they were not accompanied it would add more interesting contrast? One example would be at "C", where I think it might me more effective if the soloists were not accompanied. Another idea is at "B" to maybe have the Violins accompany the piccolo only the second time on the repeat? I'll point out that m.63 is a good example of this. The solo Bassoon accompanied by pizz. strings is a welcome contrast, so maybe try to use more of this throughout the entire piece?
  • The ending feels unresloved, perhaps because the Ab in m.96 followed by the Bb chord at the end feels like a IV-V, preparing for a resolution to Eb? I have always thought Eb is a very triumphant chord, so it may be appropriate to use it here to symbolize the victory of the tortoise?

Of course these are just my opinions, feel free to ignore if you disagree. The piece is great as it is, thanks again for sharing!

-gmm

  • Like 1
Posted

@Alex Weidmann I see what you mean now.  I can definitely understand the harp having rests since it's in a grand staff.  But now also I can see the utility of using a glissando with rests if the glissando is meant to take a really long time to complete, because tying the note across measures to extend its length might confuse the intent of starting the glissando immediately instead of on the last note in the series of tied notes.  But, since I haven't tried it, I don't know how to enter such a case into Musescore 4 and how able Musescore 4/Musesounds is to execute such instructions.  I know that my original intention in this piece was to have a portamento glissando in the Piccolo, but Musescore wasn't able to play it back so I settled for a chromatic glissando, which I'm happy to say I think I'm more satisfied with than my original intention.  Thanks for your contribution and sorry I am not able to answer your questions!  I think, possibly "Behind Bars" by Gould might contain the answer but I don't own that book (yet! LoL).

7 hours ago, gmm said:

I really liked your clever use of motives to represent each character. I particularly liked the exchange that takes place at C. I can very easily imagine the hare mocking the tortoise here. Throughout the piece there are many other "conversations" such as this that are just as effective.

Thanks!  It was a happy accident that the Tortoise and Hare's themes tempi were in a ratio of 2:1 at C allowing the Hare's theme to be played in diminution during the Tortoises' slower tempo and fitting nicely into the 2nd half of the bar.

7 hours ago, gmm said:

I noticed a lot of the time the piccolo and bassoon are doubled in the Vln1 and Cello respectively. I think if maybe you had a few cases where they were not accompanied it would add more interesting contrast? One example would be at "C", where I think it might me more effective if the soloists were not accompanied. Another idea is at "B" to maybe have the Violins accompany the piccolo only the second time on the repeat? I'll point out that m.63 is a good example of this. The solo Bassoon accompanied by pizz. strings is a welcome contrast, so maybe try to use more of this throughout the entire piece?

Admittedly I didn't reflect much on when I should or shouldn't double the Piccolo and Bassoon with respective string instruments, besides maybe at J when the Tortoise tires and plays its melody fragmented and an octave higher to make it seem thinner and more labored.  Yes, at 63 I guess it definitely would have been overkill to double both the Piccolo and Bassoon with string instruments and I think the delicate pizzicato strings allow the wind instruments to speak better in the foreground at that part.

7 hours ago, gmm said:

The ending feels unresloved, perhaps because the Ab in m.96 followed by the Bb chord at the end feels like a IV-V, preparing for a resolution to Eb? I have always thought Eb is a very triumphant chord, so it may be appropriate to use it here to symbolize the victory of the tortoise?

I am very used to hearing pieces end on dominant chords without expecting a resolution I guess (did I just listen to more Beatles songs as a kid than you did or something?  LoL)  I also really like pieces/songs that are in mixolydian and that also doesn't demand a resolution to the respective ionian mode.

7 hours ago, gmm said:

Of course these are just my opinions, feel free to ignore if you disagree. The piece is great as it is, thanks again for sharing!

Your opinions, suggestions and critiques are always appreciated!  I am glad you appreciate this piece!  Have you ever considered joining one of these competitions or writing your own "The Tortoise and the Hare" themed piece?  I know you usually only write absolute music and prefer your listeners to make up their own minds about what your music conjures in their minds.  But do you think you'd ever venture into composing programmatic music yourself?

Thanks again for your review!

Peter

  • Like 1
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

Excellent composition my friend. The writing is mature and crafted with an experienced hand to my ears. Not only do you do a superb job weaving and blending themes and material, but the music is soaked with character. Even without the programmatic cues in the score, it's very easy to decipher what's going on in the music with the great care you took with instrumentation and color. 

As a side note, musescore is sounding great! It's awesome to hear your music come to life a lot more. Sure some of us can hear past gritty midi sounds and focus on the more absolute part of composition, but it's always an obvious advantage to hear your work with more life to it as far as sound quality. 

The writing is idiomatic, and I think you have a knack for writing with a prompt in mind. Is this still a goal of yours? Creating music for the gaming industry? If so, stick this piece at the top of your press kit; this one is a "winner" 😉

 

  • Like 1
  • 7 months later...
Posted

The beginning gives me such a, "Cowboy walks into the old town saloon" vibe lol

When the cellos joined the Bassoon in stating the tortoise's theme, did you see what pizzicato cellos would have sounds like with the bassoon? I'm just trying to imagine it. Maybe it wasn't the timbre you were looking for? Just a thought experiment.

The violin melody in the D section "Enter Fox" is very free-flowing and I like that a lot. The time signature swap caught me by surprise and it took me a second to feel the downbeat again. Great job blending the themes and their "adjusted" themes together in the E section. It's hard to explain, but you use different ranges of a given chord so that each instrument doesn't interfere with another's timbre. I am a HUGE believer in that. Also, there's a lot of contrary motion here that is very satisfying to the ear. Great attention to detail and this was my favorite section.

There's a very long hairpin decrescendo on the bassoon that could be replaced with a decrescendo in the F section. There are also a few notation errors in the I section that are basically all the same mistake: the mezzo piano shouldn't be indicated under a rest. Maybe it's your notation software?

Overall, this was a joy to listen to and analyze. I was impressed with how you crafted each section with its distinct character and seamlessly blended themes together. While there are some refinements to be made in terms of engraving, I believe you demonstrated a high level and capability of storytelling, creativity, and understanding of musical theory.

  • Like 1
Posted
5 minutes ago, WowBroThatWasReallyEdgy said:

Overall, this was a joy to listen to and analyze. I was impressed with how you crafted each section with its distinct character and seamlessly blended themes together. While there are some refinements to be made in terms of engraving, I believe you demonstrated a high level and capability of storytelling, creativity, and understanding of musical theory.

Thank you!

7 minutes ago, WowBroThatWasReallyEdgy said:

When the cellos joined the Bassoon in stating the tortoise's theme, did you see what pizzicato cellos would have sounds like with the bassoon? I'm just trying to imagine it. Maybe it wasn't the timbre you were looking for? Just a thought experiment.

I think the pizzicato would punctuate the bassoon melody too strictly.  I especially wanted there to be a legato between the D, D#, E chromatic rise because that is what I conceived of as being the characteristic "tortoise is poking his head out of his shell" sound.

9 minutes ago, WowBroThatWasReallyEdgy said:

Great job blending the themes and their "adjusted" themes together in the E section. It's hard to explain, but you use different ranges of a given chord so that each instrument doesn't interfere with another's timbre. I am a HUGE believer in that. Also, there's a lot of contrary motion here that is very satisfying to the ear. Great attention to detail and this was my favorite section.

Thank you!  Yes - I did pick the instruments with this in mind so that they mostly wouldn't get in each others way.

11 minutes ago, WowBroThatWasReallyEdgy said:

There's a very long hairpin decrescendo on the bassoon that could be replaced with a decrescendo in the F section.

Yes - you're totally right there.  8 measures might have been stretching the hairpin out too far.

13 minutes ago, WowBroThatWasReallyEdgy said:

There are also a few notation errors in the I section that are basically all the same mistake: the mezzo piano shouldn't be indicated under a rest. Maybe it's your notation software?

Yes - right again.  In Musescore, if I change a dynamic too drastically right as a new note begins to play then there will be an audible blip where the note initially starts playing at the old dynamic for a very brief moment before being suddenly readjusted to the new dynamic and the only way to avoid this is to assign the new dynamic on a rest before the note begins so there's no audible change in dynamics.  LoL 🤣

17 minutes ago, WowBroThatWasReallyEdgy said:

The beginning gives me such a, "Cowboy walks into the old town saloon" vibe lol

LoL - I haven't heard it described that way before.  Must be a very slow cowboy haha

Thanks for your detailed review!  I felt inspired by your entry and by the competition as a whole and I couldn't let a great theme go to waste.  Of course - for me, every composition is another opportunity to write yet another set of variations!  LoL  Thanks for your remarks!

Peter

  • 2 weeks later...

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