Symphony no. 1 in C minor (mvt. 1)

After a good long while of waiting for the ideas to come back, here we are!

I'm rather proud to announce the completion of my symphony's first movement. It's been a good long while since I last posted about progress on this symphony, and I think it's about time I broke the ice and post the finished product here.

I'm fully intending on finishing this symphony by the end of the next two years or so, but I'm taking a break from symphonic writing for now (because it drains my will to compose like no other). I'll be returning to form and focusing on writing for smaller ensembles (and piano covers!) while waiting for the ideas to start emerging for the second mvt. to this symphony, so hopefully I'll be able to post more after this.

That being said, this piece is obviously far from truly finished: it's only a quarter of the struggle, after all. I'll be looking forward to reading all of your comments and criticisms as per usual. I can't wait to get through them all!

(Also, to@Henry Ng Tsz Kiu: I owe this one to you! 😁)

I am very impressed with this work. I have not yet dared write for such a large scale orchestra, thus I have little experience with orchestration to offer. But at the very least, I can say I have thoroughly enjoyed the orchestration on show here, which I believe is a testament to your skill as a composer. 

I would like to hear more about your influences for this work, as well as the story you intend to depict here - I gather it is programmatic. 

With my relatively frugal experience at writing symphonic music on such scale, I feel perhaps that the criticism that I can offer is only limited really to my own personal taste and listening experiences. Of that, I can say that I do enjoy music in general that offers memorable musical ideas (which are often repeated to an extent) with a largely circular structure (sonata form). Beethoven's Eroica or 5th symphony are good examples of this - they contain highly memorable ideas that have earned their place in the canon. 

With your work, I feel the narrative does to an extent wonders off in a linear fashion without a lot of obvious repetition of previous material. Perhaps I should listen to the work for a second time should I be mistaken. 

I did particularly enjoy the soloist sections, the antiphony between the various instruments and the emotional variety that ultimately builds towards such a superb dramatic finish. 

Thanks for sharing, I can really see how much effort you have put into this. It has been a pleasure. I believe you have a gift to offer. 

13 hours ago, Markus Boyd said:

I am very impressed with this work. I have not yet dared write for such a large scale orchestra, thus I have little experience with orchestration to offer. But at the very least, I can say I have thoroughly enjoyed the orchestration on show here, which I believe is a testament to your skill as a composer. 

Thank you, @Markus Boyd! I'm happy you've enjoyed my piece; I've worked reasonably hard for it, so it's good to see that that's paid off.

13 hours ago, Markus Boyd said:

I would like to hear more about your influences for this work, as well as the story you intend to depict here - I gather it is programmatic. 

Contrary to what you might expect, it wasn't meant to be programmatic at all: I came up with the melody while noodling on the piano and that was where it started. Pretty much all of my pieces before this were programmatic in nature, and I tried to move away from that into absolute music, but it seems the effect continues to linger with this one 😅

I'd love to hear about what you heard from the piece, though: I never considered this piece to be anything but absolute, so a change of perspective is always welcome.

13 hours ago, Markus Boyd said:

With your work, I feel the narrative does to an extent wonders off in a linear fashion without a lot of obvious repetition of previous material. Perhaps I should listen to the work for a second time should I be mistaken. 

I did particularly enjoy the soloist sections, the antiphony between the various instruments and the emotional variety that ultimately builds towards such a superb dramatic finish. 

I think that's a fair criticism to my piece, honestly: I'm not very good at manipulating themes and harmonies just yet, so it makes sense how it would sound as if I just dropped in the melody from one section into another and rolled with it. I tried reusing themes some time around the 8 minute mark and around the end, though; it's probably because I wrote the piece, but I never noticed it not working, I suppose.

I was worried about the soloist sections: I was worried they might oversaturate the pieces with repetitive moments, but I'm glad to see you enjoyed that part. 

Again, thank you! 😁

Hi @Awsumerguy,

On 11/5/2023 at 3:56 PM, Awsumerguy said:

(Also, to@Henry Ng Tsz Kiu: I owe this one to you! 😁)

Thx!

That timpani at the introduction is so much alike with Brahms' Symphony no.1. Also the beginning of the exposition, as noted before, is very much like Mahler's Symphony no.2.

For me, I feel like the preparation to the section in 4:54 a bit too long with those dominant pedals and Gs, maybe I will shorten it. The 4:54 is very beautiful though.

For me the gap in b.129 and then the sudden forte chords after it is a bit abrupt without preparation. I think you are recapitulating the introductory theme here, but I think you can move more smoothly to build up the forte chords reasonably and fluently! The modulation to A minor is quite nice, just like that freakingly god modulation in Brahms' Symphony no.1 finale!

I feel like the modulation back to C minor in b.231 again not prepare enough when you just use common notes for modulations. Harmonically it works but dramatically and narratively it doesn't for me. I think you can at least give some disappointment to the music before getting back to C minor.

As @Markus Boyd noted the coda is so dramatic and I like it very much too!

For me maybe the shortcoming of the movement is the planning and structure of it. The beginning and the end is very exciting to listen to, but between them there's not much contrast of energy and drama. The energy is more or less in the less exciting side, rather than ups and downs to excite the listeners. There is indeed contrast of mood, but both are serene and less exciting. The solo passages are beautiful, but sometimes you can feel less interested when you keep immersing in beautiful passages. I hope there will be some passages with fire and force inserted between, instead holding the fire till the end burst! Honestly I feel bored up to minute 9, until the coda!

Hope I won't be too nitpicky on this one. But for me you are one who have the horizon to write very good music and I hope my nitpicky review helps a bit on it. Thx for sharing!

Henry

9 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Hi @Awsumerguy,

Thx!

Good to hear from you, Henry! It's always a welcome sight to hear your feedback on my piece 😁

9 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

For me, I feel like the preparation to the section in 4:54 a bit too long with those dominant pedals and Gs, maybe I will shorten it. The 4:54 is very beautiful though.

For me the gap in b.129 and then the sudden forte chords after it is a bit abrupt without preparation. I think you are recapitulating the introductory theme here, but I think you can move more smoothly to build up the forte chords reasonably and fluently! The modulation to A minor is quite nice, just like that freakingly god modulation in Brahms' Symphony no.1 finale!

I feel like the modulation back to C minor in b.231 again not prepare enough when you just use common notes for modulations. Harmonically it works but dramatically and narratively it doesn't for me. I think you can at least give some disappointment to the music before getting back to C minor.

I do see what you mean there. I'm not going to say I fully agree with your opinion regarding the juxtapose at b. 129 (since that was sort of my intention to have the tutti come out of nowhere), but I can definitely get what you mean during the final modulation back to Cm on b. 231. Even I thought that particular bit sounded a bit rushed when I listened to it around the end of the writing process (because I knew had to bring it back to Cm somehow in order to finish the piece), but I had run out of ideas and decided to abridge the two of them together so I didn't have to leave without a finished movement. I'll think about your advice once I get to revising it: I'm taking a break from symphonic writing (that stuff's a real brain frier).

10 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

For me maybe the shortcoming of the movement is the planning and structure of it. The beginning and the end is very exciting to listen to, but between them there's not much contrast of energy and drama. The energy is more or less in the less exciting side, rather than ups and downs to excite the listeners. There is indeed contrast of mood, but both are serene and less exciting. The solo passages are beautiful, but sometimes you can feel less interested when you keep immersing in beautiful passages. I hope there will be some passages with fire and force inserted between, instead holding the fire till the end burst! Honestly I feel bored up to minute 9, until the coda!

That's probably in part due to my tendency to intently listen only to the beginnings and endings of a symphony's first movements: I get lost somewhere around the middle, so that's probably the reason why the middle it sounded so melodramatic 😅

I'll consider adding some drama here and there, though: I can see why you'd think there wasn't enough sturm und drang in this movement so far. I'd love to hear where you'd place these moments, because I really don't know what material to put in, or where I should even be putting them. If you also have the time to spare, I'd like to hear about your gripes regarding my structure: I know this movement probably isn't as well-crafted as you (or I) would have wanted, but there's always next time to improve my work, right? 😉

10 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Hope I won't be too nitpicky on this one. But for me you are one who have the horizon to write very good music and I hope my nitpicky review helps a bit on it. Thx for sharing!

That's very kind of you! Again, I'll be sure to heed your advice when I get back to this symphony.

It's always a pleasure 👋

19 hours ago, Awsumerguy said:

I'll consider adding some drama here and there, though: I can see why you'd think there wasn't enough sturm und drang in this movement so far. I'd love to hear where you'd place these moments, because I really don't know what material to put in, or where I should even be putting them. If you also have the time to spare, I'd like to hear about your gripes regarding my structure: I know this movement probably isn't as well-crafted as you (or I) would have wanted, but there's always next time to improve my work, right? 😉

For me I really would bridge the b.129 one to make it a climax. Also in the middle section I will make it a curve with excitement in the middle to late portion of it, rather than serene and quiet all the time. Having some brightness and triumph portrayed there and have it defeated later seems to me more tragic, which is what Tchaikovsky did in the 3rd and 4th movement of his Pathetique, or what Brahms did in his 3rd and 4th movement of his Fourth Symphony. The end of it to the modulation of C minor can be dramatic and loud, or disappointed for a quiet sneak back to C minor.

Henry

@Henry Ng Tsz Kiu, I've heeded your advice and added a bit of a transition between end of the first development and the first repeat. Looking forward to what you think of it!

4 hours ago, Awsumerguy said:

I've heeded your advice and added a bit of a transition between end of the first development and the first repeat. Looking forward to what you think of it!

Yup I absolutely love the return back to opening climactic material before heading into a new section. I may just slightly change the instrumentation in it! Thx for your update!

Henry

54 minutes ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I may just slightly change the instrumentation in it! Thx for your update!

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on my orchestration. I thought it may have been a little sparse (i.e. not dense enough) at times; was that what you noticed too? Or was it some other issue? 

I'm open to your thoughts! 😁

Nce. Some great developed ideas here.  My biggest critique is I think the composition hangs out in Cminor a little too long.  THe middle passages in a different key would let it speak out even more.  My $0.02

This is great! There are a lot of really great ideas here, and I like the overall mood of the piece. Maybe it's because it is in C minor, but I did feel a connection to the first movement of Mahler's Second Symphony.

Some parts I liked:

• 3:19 - I really liked the string melody here, and the half diminished chord at 3:45 is wonderful!
• 6:15 - Personally I liked the bold chords here that took me by surprise, although I will say maybe you should bring the piccolo down an octave, it seems a little overpowering.
• 8:30 - The brass here is lovely! I think it would be even better if you tried to add a countermelody in the horn or trombone, the whole notes are a little stale.
• 9:33 - I really like the clarinet solo, but similar to above I think you could spice this up with some countermelody in the other woodwind voices, instead of having them play just whole notes.
• 10:55 - The string pizzicato entrance here is really cool, and a welcome contrast.

Some thoughts I had for improvement:

• 4:40 - This flute note is held for a really long time. For one, it doesn't seem realistic for the player to hold the note that long, they will need to breathe. And two, it becomes a little stale after a while. Maybe have this note be exchanged between other instruments? For example - have a clarinet come in while the flute is holding, then the flute stops as the clarinet continues, but then an oboe comes in with the clarinet and exchanges similarly? I think the change in timbre of the instruments might keep this held not more interesting...
• 6:35 - I like the overall mood of this more bombastic section, but I think you could spice it up by adding some brass. They seem underutilized in this section. The timpani at this part I think could be enhanced by have the brass play chords on the same rhythm for example
• I would split the horns into two staves, having all four on one gets a little jumbled.
• I think the climax at the end kind of comes out of nowhere, I think it could use more buildup.
• 11:45 - Add slurs to the woodwind technique here, I don't suppose you expect them to articulate all of that fast technique?
• I'll echo what others have said about the organization and structure. There are a lot of good ideas, but I don't think they are always connected well. If it were me, I would distill this down to and handful of ideas and try to develop those more, while also working on smoothing out the transitions between sections.
• I mentioned this earlier, but also work on adding more counterpoint and countermelodies. There are several places where a melody is accompanied by whole notes, when a countermelody could add interest. The best way to experiment with this is find a place where the melody has a longer note and experiment with giving one of the other voices a countermelody behind it.

Overall really great work, thanks for sharing! I look forward to hearing the rest of the completed symphony!