Piano Trio in C minor, first movement (draft)

 Dear all, and with my glacial pace... here's my next attempt at butchering chamber music! a trio for piano, violin and cello.

This is not the final/polished version, but all (most) of the elements that I think should be in the finished product are here. So... if there was any feedback on what to change, suggestions to make things more effective or better sounding or less terrible--all very very very welcome as usual. This forum has been really instrumental for my beloved hobby. I think this is my 9th composition and i would have given up WAY earlier without this. In fact, if life weren't so obtusely busy and complicated I would love to take some lessons instead of remaining the perpetual amateur 🙂 And also I would love to be more active in here...

Anyways, thanks very much for those who listen and a big hello to everyone!

Giacomo

On 4/21/2024 at 8:28 AM, Giacomo925 said:

 Dear all, and with my glacial pace... here's my next attempt at butchering chamber music! a trio for piano, violin and cello.

This is not the final/polished version, but all (most) of the elements that I think should be in the finished product are here. So... if there was any feedback on what to change, suggestions to make things more effective or better sounding or less terrible--all very very very welcome as usual. This forum has been really instrumental for my beloved hobby. I think this is my 9th composition and i would have given up WAY earlier without this. In fact, if life weren't so obtusely busy and complicated I would love to take some lessons instead of remaining the perpetual amateur 🙂 And also I would love to be more active in here...

Anyways, thanks very much for those who listen and a big hello to everyone!

Giacomo

 

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You're welcome, and I must say that I enjoyed every minute of listening to your work.

Thank you so much much @murphybridget!

Here's to hoping to improve this movement and to be inspired for continuation! Currently I'm thinking a fast scherzo (maybe g major) as a second movement, since the first movement is allegro but mostly eights so (I think) feels kinda pulled back. Then a lyrical adagio (a minor or e minor) as third movement and then a final rondò (c major but with important c minor episodes).

But as soon as I have a little time I want to work on this first movement... any feedback on what's most urgent of course super appreciated!

11 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Thank you so much much @murphybridget!

Here's to hoping to improve this movement and to be inspired for continuation! Currently I'm thinking a fast scherzo (maybe g major) as a second movement, since the first movement is allegro but mostly eights so (I think) feels kinda pulled back. Then a lyrical adagio (a minor or e minor) as third movement and then a final rondò (c major but with important c minor episodes).

But as soon as I have a little time I want to work on this first movement... any feedback on what's most urgent of course super appreciated!

 

You're most welcome, although it seems that you know more technically than I am, therefore all I can offer is my moral support. However, don't hesitate to trust your instincts and let your creativity guide you as you continue to flesh out your musical ideas. Happy composing, and I'm excited to hear how your piece progresses!

I've corrected a few things, done some minor and medium 🙂 changes, mostly in the development and recapitulation. Maybe needs a short coda? Any suggestions super welcome! Ciao!

Hi @Giacomo925,

Long time no see!

On 4/21/2024 at 11:28 PM, Giacomo925 said:

In fact, if life weren't so obtusely busy and complicated I would love to take some lessons instead of remaining the perpetual amateur 🙂 And also I would love to be more active in here...

I share the same thoughts… my life these few months has been really busy, and I used the only time remaining for composing, so I had no time for reviewing any pieces here…. But now the piece is almost finished so I can review some posts here as rest!

On the music, I love most the interaction of the four parts, as every part gets its melodic part. I always think Piano Trio hard to write, it’s easy to get the strings too thin, or making the piano overly hyped, or making the cello boring, but I think you balance well here!

Getting to Eb minor in development is nice. Just the modulation from Eb minor tonic minor in b.136 to 138 ab bit abrupt for me. I remember does the same thing in the first movement of his Piani Quartet no.3, but he modulates from Eb minor to B major to G major and then C minor, and he makes use of the drama of the abrupt key changes (to quote @chopin’s video ! (Btw I forget you are named Chopin here….))! 
For the ending in tonic major, I hope there will be more struggle between the tonic major and minor! B.91 and similar passages can be difficult, but I think it’s playable.

Thx for sharing. Can’t wait for the 2nd movement!

Henry

On 5/12/2024 at 7:19 AM, Giacomo925 said:

I've corrected a few things, done some minor and medium 🙂 changes, mostly in the development and recapitulation. Maybe needs a short coda? Any suggestions super welcome! Ciao!

 

 

 

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I think this one sounds better.

11 hours ago, murphybridget said:

I think this one sounds better.

 

Thank you! I'm trying to incorporate @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu's suggestions, THEN it'll definitely sound better!

On 5/17/2024 at 4:02 PM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Hi @Giacomo925,

Long time no see!

@Henry Ng Tsz Kiu! Always a joy to read you, and yes, long time and in fact too long.

On 5/17/2024 at 4:02 PM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

 

I share the same thoughts… my life these few months has been really busy, and I used the only time remaining for composing, so I had no time for reviewing any pieces here…. But now the piece is almost finished so I can review some posts here as rest!

I hope it was good busy but I also hope you'll have more time to be around 🙂

On 5/17/2024 at 4:02 PM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

On the music, I love most the interaction of the four parts, as every part gets its melodic part. I always think Piano Trio hard to write, it’s easy to get the strings too thin, or making the piano overly hyped, or making the cello boring, but I think you balance well here!

Thank you, of course means a lot... it's my first time to try and write a trio with piano, and I hear what you are saying. I tried to keep things balanced and I'm very glad to hear that you think it's OK!

On 5/17/2024 at 4:02 PM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Getting to Eb minor in development is nice. Just the modulation from Eb minor tonic minor in b.136 to 138 ab bit abrupt for me. I remember does the same thing in the first movement of his Piani Quartet no.3, but he modulates from Eb minor to B major to G major and then C minor, and he makes use of the drama of the abrupt key changes (to quote @chopin’s video ! (Btw I forget you are named Chopin here….))! 
For the ending in tonic major, I hope there will be more struggle between the tonic major and minor! B.91 and similar passages can be difficult, but I think it’s playable.

Thank you so much Henry! SO, I tried to incorporate your observations.

First, I think you meants to write Brahms third piano quartet, right? I do not know that piece (I've listened to the first two movements yesterday in the car, and I started the third.. so lyrical, so wonderful!!). Question: Why do you think he modulates from eb min to B maj instead of Cb maj? I guess to make the "abrupt" modulation to G a bit less abrupt at least in terms of notation? or am I missing something? Anywho, I tried to do something like that. I loved it because before going back to c min I had the violin mention the secondary theme, but it felt lonely and kinda "hanging" since I only had two measures (what now is b. 135-137). Having more space now (b. 138-146) I let the cello continue the second theme phrase before moving to c minor. The Cb maj -> G maj is perhaps a bit too abrupt so I tried to mellow it putting the d in the bass, but perhaps it's not enough? Regardless, I think it sounds much better now than it did without the longer modulation, but ofc I think so since I wrote it 🙂

Second, I like the "serene" ending in C major, but I hear your point about the two modes struggling. So... I changed the mode of the end of transition to minor (b. 221-231), and then it felt natural to let the secondary theme come back in the piano in c minor as well. When the theme then goes to the violin, it opens up to C major, but the brief part in which the cello sings has a bit of a chiaroscuro in minor as well (b. 258). Of the final codette, I turned one in minor as well (overkill now?). I think the contrast of modalities enlivens the piece, Thank you!

Finally, the piano difficult parts... yeah, it looks playable but difficult. I'll show a pianist friend and see what she has to say. I too think it's playable but it might be time consuming to learn. I might have a chance to have this performed, so I don't want to be an a-hole to the pianist 🙂  I've tried to simplify it but it didn't work so far... I'll keep trying.

2 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Thank you, of course means a lot... it's my first time to try and write a trio with piano, and I hear what you are saying. I tried to keep things balanced and I'm very glad to hear that you think it's OK!

Yea I think it’s quite hard to write a Piano Trio! I started a Piano Trio years ago but remained a draft… It’s the same as yours as it!s in C minor too!

2 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

First, I think you meants to write Brahms third piano quartet, right? I do not know that piece (I've listened to the first two movements yesterday in the car, and I started the third.. so lyrical, so wonderful!!)

It’s such a masterpiece! The third movement is in E major since Brahms originally wanna write in C sharp minor instead of C minor for the Quartet, but later found the key difficult to write so he changed it to C minor. But there’s a passage in the 3rd movement where he modulates to C minor (another abrupt modulation which is the topic in @chopin latest video!) which kinds of remind audience the tonic key of the whole piece.

2 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Question: Why do you think he modulates from eb min to B maj instead of Cb maj? I guess to make the "abrupt" modulation to G a bit less abrupt at least in terms of notation? or am I missing something? Anywho, I tried to do something like that.

Maybe B major is easier to read? They are more like enharmonic keys. Also string players tend to prefer sharp keys than flat keys. My Sextet in Gb major which has six flats will be hated by string players LoL!

2 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Anywho, I tried to do something like that. I loved it because before going back to c min I had the violin mention the secondary theme, but it felt lonely and kinda "hanging" since I only had two measures (what now is b. 135-137). Having more space now (b. 138-146) I let the cello continue the second theme phrase before moving to c minor. The Cb maj -> G maj is perhaps a bit too abrupt so I tried to mellow it putting the d in the bass, but perhaps it's not enough? Regardless, I think it sounds much better now than it did without the longer modulation, but ofc I think so since I wrote it 🙂

I really love the b.138-146 passage, but I agree that the modulation from Cb major to G major is a bit abrupt. I think it’s more in Gb major there. you can first modulate Gb major to b minor as dominant relation first, and then from b minor to G major which will be smoother!

2 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Second, I like the "serene" ending in C major, but I hear your point about the two modes struggling. So... I changed the mode of the end of transition to minor (b. 221-231), and then it felt natural to let the secondary theme come back in the piano in c minor as well. When the theme then goes to the violin, it opens up to C major, but the brief part in which the cello sings has a bit of a chiaroscuro in minor as well (b. 258). Of the final codette, I turned one in minor as well (overkill now?). I think the contrast of modalities enlivens the piece, Thank you!

Actually I don’t think you overkill it and I think it’s very nice! Schubert uses a lot of major-minor contrast in his pieces and I think here the reintroduction of C minor makes the C major more beautiful through contrast. I remember in Schubert D899 no.1 codetta he did exactly the same thing! That piece is in C minor too!

Thx for the update!

Henry

I forgot about that Impromptu, it's such a beautiful effect! Thank you for reminding me. Also I listened to the third movement of Brahms, such wonderful wonderful music, thank you so much for that. I thought I found the modulation to G major but then I lost it again 🙂 Looking forward to listening to the last movement now.

SO I think I solved the modulation issue, though I wasn't able to do it as elegantly as you suggested, but rather I used two diminished 7th chords. As you pointed out, at 142 we are in Gb, so from there with the first dim 7th I go to f minor and form there with another 7th to c minor... The cello ascends and the piano right hand gives the harmony. Thanks, as usual, for all your super generous help, I think this might not be a draft anymore haha.

On 5/18/2024 at 6:25 AM, Giacomo925 said:

Thank you! I'm trying to incorporate @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu's suggestions, THEN it'll definitely sound better!

 

15 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

I forgot about that Impromptu, it's such a beautiful effect! Thank you for reminding me. Also I listened to the third movement of Brahms, such wonderful wonderful music, thank you so much for that. I thought I found the modulation to G major but then I lost it again 🙂 Looking forward to listening to the last movement now.

SO I think I solved the modulation issue, though I wasn't able to do it as elegantly as you suggested, but rather I used two diminished 7th chords. As you pointed out, at 142 we are in Gb, so from there with the first dim 7th I go to f minor and form there with another 7th to c minor... The cello ascends and the piano right hand gives the harmony. Thanks, as usual, for all your super generous help, I think this might not be a draft anymore haha.

 

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Is this the one with Henry's suggestions? I'll try to get a better headset to listen to this soon. 

42 minutes ago, murphybridget said:

Is this the one with Henry's suggestions? I'll try to get a better headset to listen to this soon. 

Btw, what headset will you recommend?

Henry

37 minutes ago, murphybridget said:

 

Is this the one with Henry's suggestions? I'll try to get a better headset to listen to this soon. 

 

thank you! but wait! I'm making another change *facepalm*

Final version, I swear. I have adjusted the b. 142-143 modulation slightly (violin part) to improve melodic effect. Then I felt that the secondary theme was a bit bare. I left it as is in the exposition but in the recapitulation, since it comes back in the minor key with the piano, I felt it could use some more volume, so I tried to harmonize it and to add a chromatic line in a couple of passages, while when the violin repeats it in major, now the cello imitates the violin with the secondary theme. I think it sounds better but please let me know your feedback because, as we say in Italy, all roaches look beautiful to their moms 🙂 

5 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Final version, I swear. I have adjusted the b. 142-143 modulation slightly (violin part) to improve melodic effect.

Yeah now it’s definitely smoother and less abrupt! I like this more! I would still persist to modulate to B minor and then G major as the dominant of C minor, but that’s not my piece so up to your choice haha!

5 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Then I felt that the secondary theme was a bit bare. I left it as is in the exposition but in the recapitulation, since it comes back in the minor key with the piano, I felt it could use some more volume, so I tried to harmonize it and to add a chromatic line in a couple of passages, while when the violin repeats it in major, now the cello imitates the violin with the secondary theme.

Yeah I always like some imitative interplays between instruments! A more Schubertian treatment would be violin playing the major version of the theme and cello the minor version, but it’s not a must LoL. Thx for your update!

Henry

On 5/20/2024 at 12:47 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Btw, what headset will you recommend?

Henry

 

I don't know, mines just a cheap Chinese one that does the job. It just broke down recently. How about you henry?