Logic Pro 11 vs Muse Sounds

Hi to all my fellow composers.

Just wondered if any of you have been using Muse Score 4 along with Logic Pro 10 or 11?

I've recently been experimenting with both.

When using the built in orchestral instrument libraries that come with Logic, I found it difficult to create a realistic sound, even after hours of tinkering with automation curves and reverb.

Same goes for the free version of BBCSO from Spitfire.

By contrast, I found Muse Score 4 produces a pretty realistic sound straight off the the bat. Much better than anything I can get with Logic.

The only problems I've had are with fine tuning the dynamics.

I sometimes have to use very fussy notation to create a single note diminuendo, and it's quite easy to make a jarring dynamic artefact by mistake. 
It's a shame circle-tipped hairpins aren't recognised, as those would be really useful.

Another issue I have is with peak level clipping/distortion.

This is much easier to avoid with Logic. 

Anyhow, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts...

Hi @Alex Weidmann!

I've never used Logic but I know @Left Unexplained has.

43 minutes ago, Alex Weidmann said:

The only problems I've had are with fine tuning the dynamics.

I have some sneaky tricks I use in Musescore 4 to let me get the most out of my dynamics.  For piano music, if I want to better balance part of my piano score I use velocity values to bring out the melody.  For example I offset the melody from the rest of the notes by say about 20 - 40 velocity values.  In the past this has actually only worked on MS Basic Soundfonts and I have thus far not been able to make these minute changes in dynamics to specific parts of a piano score with the Musesounds - although they've since updated the software so it might be worth it to check if that ability has been added.

Sometimes I've also found that accent marks help bring definition to a melodic line or figuration by placing the accents on notes that fall on a strong beat.  This usually works with Musesounds and with any instrument, not just piano.

50 minutes ago, Alex Weidmann said:

I sometimes have to use very fussy notation to create a single note diminuendo, and it's quite easy to make a jarring dynamic artefact by mistake. 
It's a shame circle-tipped hairpins aren't recognised, as those would be really useful.

I think I know what you mean.  If I want a single note diminuendo to say, pp, without a jarring dynamic artefact at the end when the instrument doing the diminuendo starts playing again at a higher dynamic following that diminuendo, you have to leave a short rest between notes to allow the diminuendo to come to its target dynamic and also another short time interval of silence to bring the dynamic back up to the new higher dynamic before the new note starts playing.  I hope that makes sense.  As long as the sudden dynamic change from pp to the higher new dynamic happens during a silence you should be fine.

54 minutes ago, Alex Weidmann said:

Another issue I have is with peak level clipping/distortion.

I know MuseHub has a compressor you can download and apply to the master track in the mixer in Musescore 4 Studio.

I hope some of that helps!  Thanks for your post.

Not to shill my own stuff, but I did a demo piece using the Berlin Orchestra add-on for MuseSounds that has received a lot of positive feedback for its capabilities while being under 100$.

Compare this to another piece I did that uses almost all vanilla musesounds.

My opinion:

Vanilla Musesounds has a lot of problems. There are nasty artifacts in crescendos and diminuendos, the trumpets and trombones are frankly awful and the dynamics are all out of sorts.

Berlin Winds/Brass/Strings are considerable improvement, but still suffer from odd glitches (first note in the brass is often louder than the rest for no apparent reason), and the dynamic balance issues of Musesounds.

Now, compare that in a shootout to the kontakt libraries I used on my recent album

To my ears, even the add-ons to Musesounds — mostly — cannot compete with that. 

Neither the logic stock orchestral sounds nor BBCSO Free (which only has 1 dynamic layer) will be able to beat Musesounds, but neither of the previous can beat a well crafted performance of a strong composition in a DAW with quality Kontakt libraries.

IMO, if Kontakt libraries are out of reach for you, I would consider buying the Berlin series for Musescore, and then exporting the audio from it to manipulate further in logic with better reverbs or helping the dynamics out by adding fades manually.

Many thanks to you both: those are really helpful comments!

Not quite sure where to look for the Berlin orchestra Muse Score add-on? Sounds like it's definitely worth having though.

I'm interested to know how you rate the round robins, legato transitions and spiccato in Muse Sounds, compared with Kontakt libraries?

What I really like about Muse Score is the natural sounding vibrato and portamento lirico in the solo strings.
It's especially pleasing that these effects are added automatically: so I don't have to painstakingly sculpt automation curves for every single note!

I actually rather like the muted trumpets in Muse Sounds, and the French horns sound pretty good too, as well as the timps. 

The issue I've had with single note dynamics, is that MS 4 won't allow me to add a hairpin plus target dynamic to the same note. So instead I have to make a tied note pair, and place the target dynamic on the second note.
Sometimes I need to use something like a quadruple dotted note tied to a very short note.

To get fine control, I often have to use pppp, or ppppp instead of n as my target dynamic: so the whole thing looks very messy! 

I then need to eliminate all this clutter when I send my pdf files out to real musicians: so I end up making two versions of my score.

Far as I know, you still can't use velocities with Muse Sounds; they only work in MS Basic.

Exporting my Muse Score audio files into Logic is an excellent idea, and I was thinking along those lines too.

That way I could use Mastering Assistant for my EQ and compression.

P.S. Have found Berlin add-ons now. Just had to update my version of Muse Hub. 
Bit torn though between Spitfire and Berlin strings.

9 hours ago, Alex Weidmann said:

I'm interested to know how you rate the round robins, legato transitions and spiccato in Muse Sounds, compared with Kontakt libraries?

The round robins I would rate about the same; a lot of Kontakt libraries would do better to focus on RRs for longs rather than a billion for shorts. 

I'm not a big fan of the spiccato in MS, but that's a bit of a taste thing since I find them not "heavy" enough for the kinds of music I typically write. 

As for legato transitions that is by the far the best part of Musesounds and its add-ons. I really like the Berlin strings legato and the portamento, and even standard MuseSounds Horns are great. I actually like them better than Cinebrass or Cinematic Strings 2. Though I would say Cinematic Studio strings would be at least as good, but then...CSS costs like 500 USD.

9 hours ago, Alex Weidmann said:

The issue I've had with single note dynamics, is that MS 4 won't allow me to add a hairpin plus target dynamic to the same note. So instead I have to make a tied note pair, and place the target dynamic on the second note.
Sometimes I need to use something like a quadruple dotted note tied to a very short note.

To get fine control, I often have to use pppp, or ppppp instead of n as my target dynamic: so the whole thing looks very messy! 

I then need to eliminate all this clutter when I send my pdf files out to real musicians: so I end up making two versions of my score.

I have all the same complaints.

9 hours ago, Alex Weidmann said:

Exporting my Muse Score audio files into Logic is an excellent idea, and I was thinking along those lines too.

That way I could use Mastering Assistant for my EQ and compression.

Definitely

10 hours ago, Alex Weidmann said:

The issue I've had with single note dynamics, is that MS 4 won't allow me to add a hairpin plus target dynamic to the same note. So instead I have to make a tied note pair, and place the target dynamic on the second note.
Sometimes I need to use something like a quadruple dotted note tied to a very short note.

You can get the same results with hidden unplayed notes in another voice.  That way your whole notes still look like they're whole instead of two half-notes tied to each other and the machinery behind how you were able to insert a bunch of intermediate dynamics during the duration of that whole note is all hidden and not displayed in the score.  The hidden unplayed notes in another voice don't affect playback and can be adjusted to any position within the duration of any longer note and can be used as the hook on which to hang your target dynamics anywhere in the measure.