Advanced Roman numeral analysis

Hello, I need help with learning more advanced Roman numeral analysis for chromatic harmony. I came across this problem when trying to write my analysis of Rachmaninoff’s elegy. 

 In bar 4, the harmony is a dominant seventh flat nine without the root over a tonic pedal. And it is also a tonic prolongation. I have read, though I have no confirmation that tonic prolongations are just written as tonic all the time. But if it weren’t a tonic prolongation, how do I write it. Is the pedal point written separately or is it notated like in jazz with the / sign

I have some other doubts such as: Is a tritone substitution notated as a Neapolitan seventh or does it have its own name in Roman numeral analysis?  What is the Neapolitan is not in first inversion? What if an augmented sixth is not in a usuals inversion Etc Etc Etc. So, as I have an infinite amount of doubts: Could someone recommend a book or website that covers on Roman numeral analysis of experimental/daring harmony?

Hey Manuel @Jqh73o,

3 hours ago, Jqh73o said:

In bar 4, the harmony is a dominant seventh flat nine without the root over a tonic pedal. And it is also a tonic prolongation. I have read, though I have no confirmation that tonic prolongations are just written as tonic all the time.

B.4 is a tonic prolongation since b.5 is also in tonic, so the V in b.4 is not functional but extending the established tonic.

3 hours ago, Jqh73o said:

But if it weren’t a tonic prolongation, how do I write it. Is the pedal point written separately or is it notated like in jazz with the / sign

I don't know how jazz write it, but if it's not prolongation, let say it's a V chord on a tonic pedal, it will just be notated as V, while the tonic pedal will be considered as a non harmonic tone.

3 hours ago, Jqh73o said:

Is a tritone substitution notated as a Neapolitan seventh or does it have its own name in Roman numeral analysis?

Never heard of tritone substitution or Neapolitan seventh. What's that?

3 hours ago, Jqh73o said:

What is the Neapolitan is not in first inversion?

Schubert and Chopin use a lot of N chord in root position, just like Chopin's famous C minor prelude.

3 hours ago, Jqh73o said:

What if an augmented sixth is not in a usuals inversion

It's still an augmented sixth since the "sixth" means the interval, but not the first inversion.

3 hours ago, Jqh73o said:

Could someone recommend a book or website that covers on Roman numeral analysis of experimental/daring harmony?

I always find the book "Harmony and Voice Leading" a great book!

Henry

39 minutes ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Never heard of tritone substitution or Neapolitan seventh. What's that?

A tritone substitution is like - what if a Neapolitan 6th with a minor 7th added to it resolved straight to the tonic?  It has the same tendency tones as a V chord (in the key of C, B and F) which would resolve the same way as a V chord would.  But the Neapolitan chord's root is technically Db - a tritone away from V which is why it is usually called a tritone substitution in jazz.  Because the traditional V chord is substituted instead with a chord whose root is a tritone away but functions the same way as a dominant seventh.  But the Neapolitan would have to have the B in it (the 7th).  And it also is harder to avoid parallels since the whole major chord, Db, F, Ab is all meant to resolve down straight to the tonic C, E, G with only the B resolving in contrary motion to the rest of the tones.

1 hour ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

tritone substitution is like - what if a Neapolitan 6th with a minor 7th added to it resolved straight to the tonic?  It has the same tendency tones as a V chord (in the key of C, B and F) which would resolve the same way as a V chord would.  But the Neapolitan chord's root is technically Db - a tritone away from V which is why it is usually called a tritone substitution in jazz.  Because the traditional V chord is substituted instead with a chord whose root is a tritone away but functions the same way as a dominant seventh.  But the Neapolitan would have to have the B in it (the 7th).  And it also is harder to avoid parallels since the whole major chord, Db, F, Ab is all meant to resolve down straight to the tonic C, E, G with only the B resolving in contrary motion to the rest of the tones.

But then it's just the same as a German sixth but treat the V as a I?

2 minutes ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

But then it's just the same as a German sixth but treat the V as a I?

Yes!  But you don't have to spell it as an augmented 6th - just use a dominant 7th chord.  Theory nerds will claim there's a difference because the Augmented 6th chords are pre-dominant chords, while the tritone substitution is functionally just like a dominant 7th (although I think the Augmented 6th chords are more like secondary dominants anyway).

22 minutes ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Yes!  But you don't have to spell it as an augmented 6th - just use a dominant 7th chord.  Theory nerds will claim there's a difference because the Augmented 6th chords are pre-dominant chords, while the tritone substitution is functionally just like a dominant 7th (although I think the Augmented 6th chords are more like secondary dominants anyway).

Wow I'm sure I'm of those theory nerd! I don't think the tritone substition act as dominant but rather just decorated chords since I never believe a dominant chord can be substituted by a tritone chord! For me it doesn't have any function other than decoration in post cadential passage, just like at the end of Schubert's String Quintet. But I don't listen to jazz at all haha!

Henry

3 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Wow I'm sure I'm of those theory nerd! I don't think the tritone substition act as dominant but rather just decorated chords since I never believe a dominant chord can be substituted by a tritone chord! For me it doesn't have any function other than decoration in post cadential passage, just like at the end of Schubert's String Quintet. But I don't listen to jazz at all haha!

Henry

 

HI

Any chord containing the tritone that resolves the following chord has dominant function
therefore the tritone substitute is
but it can also be a diminished chord, or one with superimpositions, etc.

There are many examples in romantic music, and onwards.