Symphony no. 4 Almost Done!

I'm almost done with this piece, I just want to see all you nice people's thoughts before I call it complete.

The program is in the last post I made about it:

Thanks in advance for any helpful criticisms or advice 😄

I like the 3rd movement, would like to hear a it with better production.

7 minutes ago, MantisToboggan said:

I like the 3rd movement, would like to hear a it with better production.

 

Once I'm officially done with the piece, I'm going to put it in musescore 4 with the fancy musesounds. I just don't like composing in that newer program

Hey @ComposaBoi!

I'm glad you divided your movements into separate files as it facilitates my attempt to review such a gargantuan work.  I'll start with movement 2 as it seems to be the most jaunty and scherzo-like.  I do have to say that I feel like the orchestration is really missing a piccolo in my opinion.  There were some spots where the statements of the theme could have been expanded to a higher range with the inclusion of piccolo instead of just alternating between strings and the winds you already have.  I think measures 58 - 61 really could have benefited from the inclusion of piccolo.

I think some of the chromatic passages like at 54 - 55 give that particular part of the movement the character of a circus march.  Chromaticism like that can be tricky - when used right it can make dark movements more mysterious, or it can make bright music more comical (is that what you were going for?).

The retransition from the Adagio back to the Vivace I thought was a bit abrupt.  Perhaps, if it were my piece, I would have brought back the F# major ostinato in the strings at the Adagio tempo and then slowly increase the tempo until I got back to Vivace.  But overall, I really enjoyed the Adagio part of the movement.  Especially when the strings started playing pizzicato it really gave it a Mahlerian dark character.  Which is why I thought the retransition back to the jaunty, bright and happy Vivace was so out of place after that.

Thanks for sharing!  I hope to review some more of the movements later on.

Hey Jonathon @ComposaBoi,

First congrats on the massive work! I would review the 1st movement first!

I feel like you have taken Bee's 9th Symphony as model haha! For me I would enjoy the music to be more in the faster Allegro tempo, given my traditional sense of a Symphony haha. The opening slow section is fine for me and I like your accelerando to the Allegro, but I feel in the Allegro you are not really developing the theme even though you have great voice exchanges and orchestration there, since the same figures are played interchangably. The harmony there is alternating I-V in g minor and I think you can modulate to other keys as well!

For the development I absolutely love your buildup to p.28's climax. But I feel like the build up itself is too long, particularly in a slow tempo and quiet dynamic for a long time. Your key changing there is nice, but I would want more tempo and dynamic change there!

I love your Allegro Section in p.29 much more than the previous one since I really feel there's development there! And the buildup to climax is very effective. For me personally the ending ends in triumph too early haha.

Thx for sharing!

Henry

Hi Jonathon,

It's surprising for me to have the 2nd movement in F# major in a D minor piece despite the previous movement ending in D major! String players always said F# major (or Gb major) difficult for string players but you are a string player yourself so I think that's not a problem!

You really capture the scherzo style, and I like those chromatic fallings before the end of it. I actually think both the modulation to the C# minor and changing the tempo to Adagio in the Trio section a bit abrupt. Maybe personally I won't change the tempo to Adagio, but that's subjective. Also you should change the key signature there! Like Peter said I love the pizzicatos there.

For me the retranstions works fine as it reminds me of the Scherzo in Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony.

Thx for sharing! I will finish the remaining two movements indefinitely haha.

Henry

On 12/9/2024 at 12:56 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I do have to say that I feel like the orchestration is really missing a piccolo in my opinion.  There were some spots where the statements of the theme could have been expanded to a higher range with the inclusion of piccolo instead of just alternating between strings and the winds you already have.  I think measures 58 - 61 really could have benefited from the inclusion of piccolo.

I was trying to limit myself more with auxiliary winds with this piece lol, and I thought it worked fine, but I’ll try a piccolo, or maybe just use the very highest register of the flute. I’ll see what works.

On 12/9/2024 at 12:56 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

or it can make bright music more comical (is that what you were going for?).

Yup! 👍

On 12/9/2024 at 12:56 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Perhaps, if it were my piece, I would have brought back the F# major ostinato in the strings at the Adagio tempo and then slowly increase the tempo until I got back to Vivace.

I’ll try that too, but I’ll probably end up preferring how it is now 🤣

On 12/9/2024 at 12:56 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Especially when the strings started playing pizzicato it really gave it a Mahlerian dark character.

I may have stolen that accompaniment from the 3rd movement of Mahler’s second symphony 😬

Thanks for the feedback! I always appreciate it.

On 12/9/2024 at 2:42 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I feel in the Allegro you are not really developing the theme even though you have great voice exchanges and orchestration there, since the same figures are played interchangably. The harmony there is alternating I-V in g minor and I think you can modulate to other keys as well!

I think you said that last time, and I agree! It’s just difficult to compose with the fast chromatic runs 😭 the main thing is that the allegro part is my subordinate theme and I want the exposition to be successful in its EEC, so I need to not modulate TOO far xD but I agree. It gets a little repetitive 😅

On 12/9/2024 at 2:42 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

For the development I absolutely love your buildup to p.28's climax. But I feel like the build up itself is too long, particularly in a slow tempo and quiet dynamic for a long time. Your key changing there is nice, but I would want more tempo and dynamic change there!

Hmm. The problem might in part be due to the program because the dynamic there is forte and fortissimo, but I’ll start the crescendo earlier, maybe even make it start on fp to accentuate the cresc, and maybe I’ll make it molto accelerando instead of just accelerando 🤔

On 12/9/2024 at 2:42 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

For me personally the ending ends in triumph too early haha.

Hehehe that’s what I wanted 😈

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

It's surprising for me to have the 2nd movement in F# major in a D minor piece despite the previous movement ending in D major!

The root note of the new home key is the note that the augmented chord was gravitating toward. Heard one after the other it makes more sense imo. Also, the keys of all the movements outlines a D augmented chord: D F# A#(Bb in this case for ease of reading and writing 😅) and D again. It’s all part of my massive big brain hyper-genius plan 🤯 (sarcasm)

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

String players always said F# major (or Gb major) difficult for string players but you are a string player yourself so I think that's not a problem!

I am actually not a string player! But my brother is and I always have him test my music lol. You’ll notice I have very simple bowing in this movement for the exact purpose of giving the string players an easier time lol. (Sorry lower strings 😬)

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I actually think both the modulation to the C# minor and changing the tempo to Adagio in the Trio section a bit abrupt.

Hehehe, once again all part of my evil plan 😈 The light scherzo is meant to be “interrupted” by both the sighing motif and the english horn motif from the first movement.

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

For me the retranstions works fine as it reminds me of the Scherzo in Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony.

It’s nice to hear a second opinion, and interestingly, Tchaikovsky was a massive influence for this movement!

Thanks alot for the feedback, I look forward to your “indefinite” future comments! 🤣

Hey Jonathon,

For me I may take the movement’s tempo faster to an Adagio or even Andante, since I think the pace of the movement in the first theme is a bit slow for me.

I love the breakout in b.66, then joined by the evil bassoon with pizz. Strings!

The contrasting G minor section is necessary and I think you make a good change of texture as well. I like the counterpoint in b.53 and 85 as well.

I love the climax in b.98! It’s well prepared.Are the dissonances in b.44 passage deliberate? I may make it less dissonant by erasing the false relations haha.

Thx for sharing! Hopefully I finish the last movement soon.

Henry

Hey Jonathon,

I'm gonna finish this with the final movement!

The beginning immediately reminds me the beginnings of the 1st movement with the same theme.

I really like the marching character of the 1st theme! The usage of brass here is great for me. 

I really like the development! The voice excahnge between the different groups of instruments is great and I like your modulations. Maybe just fill in the gap in b.108-109 by the timpani would be greater!

I think the Beethovanian hopeful theme after it is a bit too long because of the slow tempo, which hinders the excitement of the development! Maybe add some exciting accompaniment below the winds would be a great idea? I think the retransition to the 1st theme is well prepared here.

I think the trimuph to b.265 is a bit abrupt, since I think the D minor struggle is not portrayed long and tragic enough to make the conquering of it powerful! It's like the final boss is just a Slime to be defeated for me! The D major trimuph is great for me though. I think you can change the key signature to D major here too.

Thx for sharing this massive work to us! I appreciate your having grand plan in your works!

Henry

Hello ComposaBoi,

I was meaning to comment on this a while ago, but procrastination really got the better of me(as is the case with too many endeavors). Apologize for my indolence. 

I wanted to say that the last movement particularly touched me; the final full iteration of the theme is quite heartfelt especially after all the dissonance you've introduced.  

My only real concerns lie in the 3rd movement and your harmonic writing for the fast sections. For the former, the violin accompaniment in the first section seems to overlap with the main theme at times. I would be careful about balance issues since it could prove difficult to discern the melody. As for the latter, Henry gave you a suggestion on this too, maybe you could try modulating to other keys, use secondary dominants or even apply modal mixture. I would also check a few part writing details, cuz some dissonances seem too jarring in the context of the work.(but it's totally up to you if you'd like to keep it that way)

Anyways, this is already quite well-thought out compositionally, given the fact that it's based on only a few themes. Your writing, in general, also feels quite personal, which is always interesting for me to hear. Consider me a follower

On 1/6/2025 at 4:14 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

For me I may take the movement’s tempo faster to an Adagio or even Andante, since I think the pace of the movement in the first theme is a bit slow for me.

hmm, maybe. I'll try it a little faster. But I'm hesitant to do Adagio because then every movement would have a part at adagio 😬

On 1/6/2025 at 4:14 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Are the dissonances in b.44 passage deliberate? I may make it less dissonant by erasing the false relations haha.

They're not deliberate, so thanks for pointing it out!!

On 1/6/2025 at 4:14 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

The contrasting G minor section is necessary and I think you make a good change of texture as well. I like the counterpoint in b.53 and 85 as well.

Also, I'm glad you liked this part! I showed the piece to my twin brother (who also composes and imo is much better than me), and he didn't like this part very much 😭

15 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I really like the development! The voice excahnge between the different groups of instruments is great and I like your modulations. Maybe just fill in the gap in b.108-109 by the timpani would be greater!

The development took a lot of work xD so I'm glad you like it! I'll try your suggestion out. 

15 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I think the Beethovanian hopeful theme after it is a bit too long because of the slow tempo, which hinders the excitement of the development! Maybe add some exciting accompaniment below the winds would be a great idea? I think the retransition to the 1st theme is well prepared here.

I'm not sure which part you're calling the "Beethovanian hopeful theme" tbh. Do you mean b. 154 to the retransition? Anyway, I could probably incorporate some Theme 1 motifs in the accompaniment to add some drama 🤯 and excitement like you said.

15 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I think the trimuph to b.265 is a bit abrupt, since I think the D minor struggle is not portrayed long and tragic enough to make the conquering of it powerful! It's like the final boss is just a Slime to be defeated for me! The D major trimuph is great for me though. I think you can change the key signature to D major here too.

I think I agree. My first draft was even worse with the end, and I thought I fixed it, but as I've listened to it more and more, it's hit me that it still doesn't feel earned. Whereas something like my Seven Sorrows piece, the end feels much more deserved, even if it's musically much less mature than this piece, it still does better in that respect. What will be tricky is how I'm going to fix this issue. I could have like a collapse immediately after the recap maybe. Or I could just get rid of the 2nd theme as it currently is in the recap and have this final triumph take place of it. I think just having it come immediately after the same theme is what makes it feel unearned. Like it was already there, no reason for the triumph. I'll figure something out haha. When I do I'll just post the finished piece to my youtube so I'm not bothering this site with more of this same piece xD

1 hour ago, Mooravioli said:

Hello ComposaBoi,

OK FIRST OFF WHY IS THERE SUCH A HUGE BLANK SPACE AFTER YOUR COMMENT!?? It's taking me ages to scroll back and forth!! 😭

1 hour ago, Mooravioli said:

I wanted to say that the last movement particularly touched me; the final full iteration of the theme is quite heartfelt especially after all the dissonance you've introduced.

Thank you. Every time someone tells me that my music touches them or anything like that, it really means the whole world to me. 

1 hour ago, Mooravioli said:

My only real concerns lie in the 3rd movement and your harmonic writing for the fast sections. For the former, the violin accompaniment in the first section seems to overlap with the main theme at times. I would be careful about balance issues since it could prove difficult to discern the melody.

Yup, I can see that too. I might just raise the melody higher, because it'd me more of a hassle to edit the accompaniment and I'm lazy. But if it doesn't work well, I'll have to fix the accompaniment TwT 

1 hour ago, Mooravioli said:

As for the latter, Henry gave you a suggestion on this too, maybe you could try modulating to other keys, use secondary dominants or even apply modal mixture. I would also check a few part writing details, cuz some dissonances seem too jarring in the context of the work.(but it's totally up to you if you'd like to keep it that way)

I'll figure something out God willing!! I just have to be careful not to get carried away with modulating, so the second theme doesn't become too long xD And I'm sure there are part writing issues all over the place. I rushed learning counterpoint when I did, so I'm thinking I missed something, especially since I still struggle writing good fugues 🥲

1 hour ago, Mooravioli said:

Anyways, this is already quite well-thought out compositionally, given the fact that it's based on only a few themes. Your writing, in general, also feels quite personal, which is always interesting for me to hear. Consider me a follower

Thank you! And yes, my music is very personal. I only ever write music (except for study pieces or competition stuff) when I'm inspired by something that strikes me in my personal life. And since I'm a super emotional guy, that usually means the music is emotional.

Some tell me that I'm actually too emotional for a guy, and they pile it with a bunch of other "effeminate" attributes of mine, so I'm going to embrace that and make my 6th piano sonata purposely feminine 😈

Hello again @ComposaBoi!

3rd movement - I think the strongest parts of this movement are the introduction and the coda which as far as I can tell are made of the same material but orchestrated differently.  Your main melody contains lots of cool chromatic neighbor tones that introduce a sense of tension and resolution.  I think the way you elongated the introductory melody to serve as the main theme is kind of pedestrian though.  Which is a shame as you spend more time on it and we only ever get to hear the "good version" of the melody in the introduction and coda.  For my taste, and it might just be me, the main theme is a bit boring starting in measure 14.  But I do like the really dramatic string writing in measure 53.  The big build up to the F7 add 13 chord in measure 66 and 97 is great.  After measure 97 you lead nicely back to the main theme which I previously found boring.  But now it sounds more profound and affecting.  I guess "repetition legitimizes" as they say.  Thanks for sharing!