PIANO QUARTET IN C MINOR: I. ALLEGRO

[ 2-28-25: EDIT:  ADDED CORRECTED 1ST MVMT TO THIS POST FROM LATER IN THREAD....]

   At long last I've gotten my Piano Quartet 1st movement into a near- final form.  There are details that need attention, but I think it is time to hopefully get some feedback.

   It took a  while--my father developed severe alzheimers, we had to move them, sell their home...

   And then my mother passed---who gave me my love of music.  

                                      Composing has helped me commune with her.....

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   A Brief summary of the 1st mvmt:

This is in classical sonata form:  exposition, development, recap with a brief coda.

Exposition:        1st theme in C minor, 2nd theme in F major, return to 1st theme and codetta

Development:  A: Development of 2nd theme into minor, some diminution of the theme, and looser feel

                         B/C:   Introduces a third theme, in 4/4 time a major key inversion of 1st theme turned into a Mendelssonian chorale w/ piano,

                              leading as an intro to...

                            A fugato passage based on the 1st theme regularized in half notes in A minor (4/4 time)

                      Coda transforms back to 6/8 and C minor...

Recap:            Return of 2nd theme in Eb major (instead of F)

                         1s theme in strings and them a grand statement w/ piano, joined by string to finish.

                       Coda:   Introduce another complimentary motif/new material manipulating main theme to close on strong cadence.

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     I generally like it, but working with recap textures/thinning and trying to abbreviate for the sake of momentum might be something I look at.

  The FUGATO passage is my first, and was hard won.  I think it works.  I learned a ton working on this piece.

    Third movement Rondo in C minor next...

(I include an MP3 of the second movement (PQ Mvmt.II VSL WS MASTER), using the new very expressive  Vienna Symphonic Library Synchron solo violin...  )

Hi @Rich,

On 1/22/2025 at 8:14 PM, Rich said:

It took a  while--my father developed severe alzheimers, we had to move them, sell their home...

   And then my mother passed---who gave me my love of music.  

I am sorry for your loss! Hope writing this will help you heal yourself.

I like the first theme in C minor. Your pathos definitely show in the music. It’s also quite creative to start not at the tonic key but in other keys first, for me it add the complexity of the music and your emotion.The 2nd theme is quite lyrical as well.

On 1/22/2025 at 8:14 PM, Rich said:

Development:  A: Development of 2nd theme into minor, some diminution of the theme, and looser feel

                         B/C:   Introduces a third theme, in 4/4 time a major key inversion of 1st theme turned into a Mendelssonian chorale w/ piano,

                              leading as an intro to...

                            A fugato passage based on the 1st theme regularized in half notes in A minor (4/4 time)

For me I won’t stay long in the tonic minor for the development section, since it would be the point of departure right after the development. I like the tremolo section in b.91. It really is Mendelssohn like, as in his 6th String Quartet. The modulation to B minor in b.137 reminds me of the 1st movement of Brahms’ 3rd Piano Quartet. The chorale sounds really Mendelssonian as in his 2nd Piano Trio. The fugato begins with syncopation but its answer is in regular beat. I think the bridge can be smoother, e.g. in b.184 it can have G# for an A melodic minor transition. The retransiton to C minor sounds abrupt to me in b.197 when a V/A Minor is followed by a C major chord with a Fb and then followed by C Minor. I think you can already change the key signature to C minor here.

The recap is more or less regular and the coda ends quite successfully.

Thx for sharing! Hope your music consoles yourself a bit.

Henry

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

 

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I am sorry for your loss! Hope writing this will help you heal yourself.

   Thank you Henry.   She was a beautiful person and loved music.  She sang in choirs all her life, and encouraged my musical pursuits.  She once told me quite recently that she had something she always wanted to express in music (she started piano lessons at age 88!).  I almost broke down on the spot.  I am her son, to be sure.   There are occasional posts on "Why Do We Compose?"  This is why!  To EXPRESS--wordlessly-which to me seems to be where all the really important parts of life are hidden...

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

like the first theme in C minor. Your pathos definitely show in the music. It’s also quite creative to start not at the tonic key but in other keys first, for me it add the complexity of the music and your emotion.

 Henry!   I had a long think on the simple question: "How to start?".  We have Mozart's unison example on his masterpiece in G minor.  But this has been overused.  Brahms starts with the quiet/mysterious in his 1st quartet.      

   I settled on this rising, dramatic intro using a bit of  motif and  this --what I thought at the time--throw-away figuration as a filler-  But the "filler" ended up being another motif through the movement!  A "discovery"!   

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

The chorale sounds really Mendelssonian as in his 2nd Piano Trio. The fugato begins with syncopation but its answer is in regular beat. I think the bridge can be smoother, e.g. in b.184 it can have G# for an A melodic minor transition. The retransiton to C minor sounds abrupt to me in b.197 when a V/A Minor is followed by a C major chord with a Fb and then followed by C Minor. I think you can already change the key signature to C minor here.

         The chorale gave me fits!!!!  I had the  melodic line very early, and the string part wrote itself, but the rules for progression here are quite strict--as you probably know.   At last, after some piano/paper and pencil work I resolved my major errors and --POP!--I hope Felix would approve!  I'm fond of the noodling violin in the repeat and violin /cello phrase.  

    The fugato syncopation to start is one of the few rules I worked by!  The contrast with the regular beats provides some "built in" tension.  I think this is correct?  I will look at your suggestions--but yes! here the transitions gave me some fits---I will absolutely  look for improvements.

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

The recap is more or less regular and the coda ends quite successfully.

          Glad you liked the coda.   This came early--the basic idea, and I knew I needed to expand on it to successfully conclude, so I again used a rising syquence from G minor to a C minor key in the two iterations---closing with a faint echo of the upward push from the opening.   The VSL sound set really pops here.

      The piece works best when I stick to proper chamber music style--- a dialog among equals--  But  the more "symphonic" sections (all voices together)have a place.    I' m not done doing  some patch-up (It never ends).  Transitions between sections still vex me and I am looking to trim measures to keep things tight and forward  moving.  I'll post (probably several!) corrected version.

                  A workshop with real musicians is coming.  I'm committed!   I  may finish the rondo (and piece) first to get more bang for the considerable bucks.

    I really REALLY appreciate your comments, Henry.  You, Peter, others in this community have been my true teachers and I hope you agree I am coming along-- because of your help.

    This is the longest,  most involved, and first proper sonata form piece I've done.  First fugato!    And pointed criticism and encouragement have made growth possible.

      I've lost my great musical friend here in my "real " world.  But my virtual musical community lives on, and my mother would most approve.

  Thank you.  Thank you all.

On 1/22/2025 at 6:14 AM, Rich said:

I learned a ton working on this piece.

I love this. Sure, you'll get advice from others to aid your growth, but breaking through your comfort zones and boundaries will be your ultimate teacher. You won't always succeed, and you may fail and trash numerous attempts at a first draft, but this "good" type of stress is the hallmark for your greatness. 

I actually turned off my critical ears while listening, and just enjoyed the music. There's always something special yet sorrowful when deeper convictions are what inspire and lead us to jot the notes down. Your voice is wonderful, and your music portrayed a logic and skill that made the length necessary. I'm very happy to have listened to this, and hopefully your future movements are written and crafted soon, as I'm eager to hear what you have for us next. 

While Henry pointed out some of the technical parts that could be improved, I think as a whole your were successful in capturing an emotion unique to you. Thank you for sharing, I enjoyed this. 

51 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

I actually turned off my critical ears while listening, and just enjoyed the music. There's always something special yet sorrowful when deeper convictions are what inspire and lead us to jot the notes down. Your voice is wonderful, and your music portrayed a logic and skill that made the length necessary. I'm very happy to have listened to this, and hopefully your future movements are written and crafted soon, as I'm eager to hear what you have for us next. 

  Wow.  I'm almost in tears (again...)

     That's all any composer at any level could want---listeners to enjoy their music.

   Thank you for the extremely kind and generous words!

    This is my 6th completed piece/movement, and I've been working at the  very limits of my understanding for the almost 3 years I've been at this.  I don't have to tell you how hard composition is, as a discipline.  It amazes me how much NOVELTY we have to introduce --thematic, orchestration, rhythmic, etc... to keep  a piece fresh and engaging.

   I've been at this movement for over  a year, when I first wrote down the first theme material.   The ups and downs, frustrations, blocks----makes it worth it when you get a compliment like yours.

   To be honest---as each of us works alone, for hours, days, months..."is it any good??" is often a secondary though to "Am I actually INSANE??" (ONLY HALF-KIDDING!).

              I'm going to keep at it, and hopefully get a memorable rondo (dramatic/heroic NOT sad...) out by summer. (I'm  thinking of Hummel's A minor piano concerto (no.2).  A wonderful composition as a whole, but his rondo is a definite ear-worm for me...  You have been warned.

  Maybe I'll frame your post to remind me that the looney bin, for now, is held at bay!

      Again, thank you!

UPDATED 2-11-25: Made recommended changes, created a "false start" in recap of 1st theme to add tension/avoid stale theme, tightened up dynamics, phrasing...

       I've started working with my pianist who is going to play in the workshop.

       I've cleaned up the score for performance--she was very helpful---and made the final large scale edit---creating a "false start" on the recap of the 1st theme, which then promptly lunges into the full throated piano rendition and complete theme/coda.   It cut 15 seconds and is generally more concise and maintains momentum (I think).

   I'm under the gun to write the Rondo in 3 months with a workshop penciled in for June.  My pianist is largely MEMORIZING my music--which is humbling and a wake up that suddenly, with a performance in the offing, this is FOR REAL.     

      Getting there.  The workshop will help with critical final edits.   This may be Opus 1... we will see.....

(2-11-25: Corrected bar 116 timing--used "hidden" markings for the first time--very handy to get a good performance score AND use the score for playback!

Also corrected bars 248-250 run up to finale thematic statement.   Timing/variations in tempo are difficult with computer....human players would have no problem doing things that take a half dozen markings to achieve with a machine....)  Now it sounds about as close to what I intended as possible...)

(NOTE:  FINALE is giivng me trouble---the last bars are having volume issues, and are too loud in playback....despite numerous efforts to correct.  Dorico is coming!....)

Wow, @Rich. This is an immense work. It is difficult to provide constructive feedback on something with such depth. I would, though, like to hear more about your influences for this work. Who are your role models and the style you are emulating? It sounds to me like something from the middle-late romantic period and, admittedly, that is not my niche! 

The engraving is also impressive. 

Wow, @Rich. This is an immense work. It is difficult to provide constructive feedback on something with such depth. I would, though, like to hear more about your influences for this work. Who are your role models and the style you are emulating?

Markus---

   Thank you for your comments.    I don't know how much depth it has!---but I did shoot for coherence and a logical form.  I must admit I am proud of it as far as thematic unity--melodic and rhythmic motivic fragments help to unify it--the opening, the three sections of the developments, and even in the coda.  I really just had to trust our great teachers from the past and put as much craft into it as I could.  And, I know, my mom's passing fueled what feeling made it into the later portions..

      I started the 1st mvmt looking to Mendelssohn and Ferdinand Ries(Beethoven's pupil and friend, and a fine composer himself)--definitely "early" romantic composers, but looked and listened to a lot of Schumann and even took to Brahms' own PQs as time passed.

       I think the basic musical language is early romantic--thematic vs. motivic development, clear diatonic harmony.  The "quiet" interior of the piece--the chorale--is my take on Mendelssohn invention he used in developments and caught on.  It worked back in the 1830/40s  because it was new--- instead of amplifying as in classical development, you take a step down before a more energetic close to the development (here the fugato).

   More generally, I love late Schubert-  the piano trios and quartets.   Spiritually, he has to be an influence.  The rest, I guess, is me.

   My own criticism of the piece is an overly formal statement of themes.  The hardest portion to write was the "A" section of the development, as chopping up and playing with fragments requires the most work, musical sensitivity,and skill---rapid modulations, changes of rhythmic patterns/motifs, etc...  I defintely want to focus on this more on my next piece--a violin sonata (to be written on Dorico for the first time!).

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    The neat score is due to my pianist holding my feet to the fire--as I asked her-- to produce a clean, usuable score/parts for performers--a new consideration! She has been great.  And thanks, it took a lot of work and time!---and I'm not done!

        Anyhow, I just signed on my string trio, and am mentally juggling a rondo theme around in my head, almost ready for pen and paper.  I would like to have it done  by early may and in my pianists hands --she  needs 4 or 5 weeks to work on it-- for a June workshop.  I've never worked like this--with a deadline of sorts--and it is a bit unpleasant!  If I blow by this deadline, my group has to bring on a new violist---a little hickup. I told them I'm not going to botch it up just to have it done, however...

I want  it to be fitting for the piece as a whole and tie it together style-wise.  I'm thinking of a call back of the chorale from the 1st movement in the coda, and a major key ending, honoring my mother, and wishing her peace....             Mainly, I need about 50 hours uninterrupted work time!!  Fat chance of that....

Thanks again for your kind words and interest!  You are a fine composer, and your thoughts have weight!  My life is a bit like an American country music song right now, and this gives me a real lift!

1 hour ago, Rich said:

 

Wow, @Rich. This is an immense work. It is difficult to provide constructive feedback on something with such depth. I would, though, like to hear more about your influences for this work. Who are your role models and the style you are emulating?

 

 

Markus---

   Thank you for your comments.    I don't know how much depth it has!---but I did shoot for coherence and a logical form.  I must admit I am proud of it as far as thematic unity--melodic and rhythmic motivic fragments help to unify it--the opening, the three sections of the developments, and even in the coda.  I really just had to trust our great teachers from the past and put as much craft into it as I could.  And, I know, my mom's passing fueled what feeling made it into the later portions..

      I started the 1st mvmt looking to Mendelssohn and Ferdinand Ries(Beethoven's pupil and friend, and a fine composer himself)--definitely "early" romantic composers, but looked and listened to a lot of Schumann and even took to Brahms' own PQs as time passed.

       I think the basic musical language is early romantic--thematic vs. motivic development, clear diatonic harmony.  The "quiet" interior of the piece--the chorale--is my take on Mendelssohn invention he used in developments and caught on.  It worked back in the 1830/40s  because it was new--- instead of amplifying as in classical development, you take a step down before a more energetic close to the development (here the fugato).

   More generally, I love late Schubert-  the piano trios and quartets.   Spiritually, he has to be an influence.  The rest, I guess, is me.

   My own criticism of the piece is an overly formal statement of themes.  The hardest portion to write was the "A" section of the development, as chopping up and playing with fragments requires the most work, musical sensitivity,and skill---rapid modulations, changes of rhythmic patterns/motifs, etc...  I defintely want to focus on this more on my next piece--a violin sonata (to be written on Dorico for the first time!).

******************************************************************************

    The neat score is due to my pianist holding my feet to the fire--as I asked her-- to produce a clean, usuable score/parts for performers--a new consideration! She has been great.  And thanks, it took a lot of work and time!---and I'm not done!

        Anyhow, I just signed on my string trio, and am mentally juggling a rondo theme around in my head, almost ready for pen and paper.  I would like to have it done  by early may and in my pianists hands --she  needs 4 or 5 weeks to work on it-- for a June workshop.  I've never worked like this--with a deadline of sorts--and it is a bit unpleasant!  If I blow by this deadline, my group has to bring on a new violist---a little hickup. I told them I'm not going to botch it up just to have it done, however...

I want  it to be fitting for the piece as a whole and tie it together style-wise.  I'm thinking of a call back of the chorale from the 1st movement in the coda, and a major key ending, honoring my mother, and wishing her peace....             Mainly, I need about 50 hours uninterrupted work time!!  Fat chance of that....

 

Thanks again for your kind words and interest!  You are a fine composer, and your thoughts have weight!  My life is a bit like an American country music song right now, and this gives me a real lift!

 

I was trying to imply that the larger scale a work the more intensive the constructive feedback process becomes. There is just so much to look at here. 
 

For what it’s worth, I felt that the minor mode could have been balanced a little more with the major mode in the first movement for better contrast. I listened to the movement again and there are only isolated and short lived instances of modulation to a major key. 
 

Not all music needs to be happy, of course… but there should be some form of hope that the listener is bound to. And that comes a little late with the second movement. 
 

Gorecki’s symphony of sorrow comes to mind… or Mozart’s great mass in c minor , in which the soprano in the opening movement features provides immediate relief from the otherwise ‘dire’ mood. 
 

That is all I can really constructively say without looking at the music in great detail. 🙂

13 minutes ago, Markus Boyd said:

For what it’s worth, I felt that the minor mode could have been balanced a little more with the major mode in the first movement for better contrast. I listened to the movement again and there are only isolated and short lived instances of modulation to a major key. 
 

  Hey Markus---

   Yes--- aside from the 2nd theme in F (Eb Major in recap), and the chorale, it is a minor key affair.  I do note the flitting between major/minor  in the works of great composers---Schubert's gift for this comes formost to  mind.

   I simply lack the technical skill to do this at this point--though, along with more motivic digressions--I want to work on it-a looser, more ranging feel in general.

        So, I agree and the point is taken. I will keep this in mind as I work on the Rondo (Rondo sonata form A/B/A/C(DEV)/A---  the key plan is Cm/G major/Cm/ maybe Am,F minor?/ then Cm with a major key ending--Eb Major or maybe C major?

  I was just thinking how even a nominal "minor key" phrase can have a major key turn (schubert again), or major key answer....I need to be open to these ideas.

  I have to be patient with myself---the learning is coming in buckets right now---even touring studios /working with the  pianist is enlightening....

The simpler scored violin sonata will allow more focus on form/feel, and I do plan on a more adventerous musical argument...

  Thank you for your comments!  They help

8 minutes ago, Rich said:

  Hey Markus---

   Yes--- aside from the 2nd theme in F (Eb Major in recap), and the chorale, it is a minor key affiar.  I do note the flitting between major/minor  in the works of great composers---Schubert's gift for this comes formost to  mind.

   I simply lack the technical skill to do this at this point--though, along with more motivic digressions--I want to work on it-a looser, more ranging feel in general.

        So, I agree and the point is taken. I will keep this in mind as I work on the Rondo (Rondo sonata form A/B/A/C(DEV)/A---  the key plan is Cm/G major/Cm/ maybe Am,F minor?/ them Cm with a major key ending--Eb Major or maybe C major?

 

  I have to be patient with myself---the learning is coming in buckets right now---even touring studios /working with the  pianist is enlightening....

 

The simpler scored violin sonata will allow more focus on form/feel, and I do plan on a more adventerous musical argument...

 

  Thank you for your comments!  They help

 

 

 

My advice would be to write music as if it were not just a conversation but a debate and, at times, and argument! 
 

A convincing narrative that can capture the listener will flow between states of tension, release and fundamental questions. 
 

You might wonder how this will help with the technical side of achieving this. And you’re right, it’s not easy. It takes me a lot of time. However, I don’t personally begin the process on a technical level. I just let the ideas flow and worry about the embellishments later. And you can work that out one way or another with determination. 
 

I hope that helps.