Suggested new YC Policy: Ban on "grading" systems

Hey all,

There are a few members posting on our boards here who continue to think that posting a numerical "grade" or "score" as a review of someone's piece of music somehow constitutes a legitimate, thoughtful, helpful review.

This absolutely outrages me every time I see it. Music composition is not the ----ing high dive. These scores do nothing but indicate a (usually self-satisfied) opinion of whoever is posting the "review" and in general I find them poor substitutes for thoughtful reviews that consist of a mix of praise and criticism.

It is for this reason, therefore, that I propose a new policy at YC: a ban on any sort of grading system for pieces posted by young composers looking for comments on their pieces. This policy would obviously not apply to anything submitted as part of a contest.

Please, ladies and gentlemen, share your thoughts with me on this. I'm certain I'm not the only one that finds such grades on new pieces not only unnecessary, but downright detrimental.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with Aerlinndan and feel as though such grading procedures are immature, irrelevent, and not suitable for critiquing an intelligent piece of music.

Sincerely,

- Matt

J/k ;) I agree.

Me too! Let's do it...

Any grading system will reflect nothing more than the "self-satisfied opinion of whoever is posting the 'review'." I don't think it really makes a difference how one chooses to express their review since the entire process is extremely subjective.

In fact, one could argue that the score is good because it offers a quick summary of what they thought which is then complemented by the comments (praise/criticism) along with it.

Personally, I couldn't care less, but I don't think it makes sense to bash just this one way of expressing a review when any review is nothing more than a subjective evaluation.

^ yup. Who gives a sh*t.

They do apparently.

I with the "I don't care" group

After the numerical scale, what next? Stopping people from posting criticism?

This should have a poll attached, then they could say something like 2/10 people agree, before dismissing the idea all together...

poll

1. I agree, this should be banned

2. I disagree, this is retarded

3. I don't care, as long as people actually review somehow

4. i give this thread 34%

Interestingly enough, the moderators were already ahead of you on this. We've been quietly debating the exact same proposal for a couple days.

The numerical scores posted obviously represent a single person's opinion, and I would not consider them particularly bad if the person posting them were justifying them with a constructive review. Hence, a day ago I was against banning them. However, I notice that at least one individual is posting numerical scores almost as a substitute for a review, which is now causing me to reconsider my opinion.

Personally, I couldn't care less, but I don't think it makes sense to bash just this one way of expressing a review when any review is nothing more than a subjective evaluation.

OK, but the subjectivity of a number is ENTIRELY different from the subjectivity of a comment like, "I didn't see how the material at bar 35 relates to what came before" or "I think you could have used the woodwinds better at letter B." Of course these latter two statements are subjective, but at the very least they give the composer something to work with. They provide a springboard for more discussion, for the sharing of more ideas, for compositional progress.

Grades do absolutely none of these things.

I'm not only saying that I see no benefit in grades. I am saying they are detrimental to the community here because they effectively shut out all the good discourse that I described above. They have no place in a legitimate subjective review.

OK, but the subjectivity of a number is ENTIRELY different from the subjectivity of a comment like, "I didn't see how the material at bar 35 relates to what came before" or "I think you could have used the woodwinds better at letter B." Of course these latter two statements are subjective, but at the very least they give the composer something to work with. They provide a springboard for more discussion, for the sharing of more ideas, for compositional progress.

Are you saying that the removal of numerical ratings will do anything to improve the situation? The problem lies not in the numbers but in the people behind them, especially if they substitute a review for numbers. You're not identifying the real problem here, you're picking out small things in favor of ignoring the larger issue.

I really don't care as long as they review in another way. Even though I think the numerical system should be avoided, but really--I could care less.

Are you saying that the removal of numerical ratings will do anything to improve the situation?

That is exactly what I am saying. I am saying that numerical reviews are harmful psychologically to composers posting their works. Low review scores can destroy morale and instill insecurities in composers with absolutely no justification, whereas high review scores can give composers a false sense of accomplishment when the fact is that every one of us, no matter how good the works we post around here may be, still have the opportunity (even the necessity) for vast improvement in every area of music composition.

I am kind of incredulous about the fact that so many of you say you just don't care either way. Why wouldn't you care? This is our community, folks, and there is nothing else like it out there, and it would seem to me that you would want to care enough to take the initiative to make this the best damn musical community we possibly can. No legitimate instructor of composition anywhere would think of putting a grade on an composition as part of a lesson (professors giving grades in a university/conservatory setting is a different matter; grades are part of the education system as we know it and are more or less a necessity). Grades have nothing at all to do with the things we are trying to accomplish here.

Low review scores can destroy morale and instill insecurities in composers with absolutely no justification

If people are so insecure that they're taking unjustified low-score comments so seriously, then it seems to me that the main problem isn't with the commenter.

I am kind of incredulous about the fact that so many of you say you just don't care either way. Why wouldn't you care? This is our community, folks, and there is nothing else like it out there, and it would seem to me that you would want to care enough to take the initiative to make this the best damn musical community we possibly can.

For me, it's simply that I see no benefit whatsoever from implementing a rule like this; frankly, I'd prefer any comments. If I find that they're unjustified or un-detailed, I'll ask for clarification. And if they're just plain silly or irrelevant then I disregard them.

Either way, no comment that I receive has the power to completely demoralize me and destroy my morale...I write the music to express what I want, so why would I be so insecure about it?

Still sounds like a pointless thing to implement, but again, it doesn't matter to me either way.

here's what the rule should be:

numerical scores are acceptable IF AND ONLY IF there are clear reasons and explanations, be it short or elaborate. Any solo numbers will be deleted.

This is pretty much my position. I'm not absolutely against numerical scores, but to see a post with about 10-15 words of little use and a numerical score appearing at the end just makes me cringe.

However, I'm still not keen on the concept regardless of the length of the textual content of the review. A reviewer could write 2,000 words for all I care; if he/she appends a numerical rating, it better be very well-justified and appropriate.

The staff are still discussing, so it won't be put into effect just yet.

I would be for banning them if there was garuntee that they'd write some reason and advice on why they gave it a bad rating. But I feel that would be incredibly tedious, as we have music going in and out all the time

That is exactly what I am saying. I am saying that numerical reviews are harmful psychologically to composers posting their works.

/sigh. If you kill the messenger, the message remains, no? If you limit one means of review you do not remove the motivation (or lack thereof) of the reviewer. You will do nothing but remove one means of conveying an idea. An idea will be conveyed one way or another. You're doing nothing but removing the simple means. In fact, by removing the easy you make it much worse for people who want to express distaste. Which is more harmful, a simple number, or a viscous yet verbal expression of opinion?

Low review scores can destroy morale and instill insecurities in composers with absolutely no justification, whereas high review scores can give composers a false sense of accomplishment when the fact is that every one of us, no matter how good the works we post around here may be, still have the opportunity (even the necessity) for vast improvement in every area of music composition.

And how, pray tell, are words any better? The thoughts will be expressed one way or another. The numbers are merely for simplicity's sake. Want to stop people from posting low numbers thus avoiding potential harm to the composer? You better start limiting the use of words too. In fact, get rid of all adjective altogether and you got yourself a nice start. Anything short will be useless.

I am kind of incredulous about the fact that so many of you say you just don't care either way. Why wouldn't you care? This is our community, folks, and there is nothing else like it out there, and it would seem to me that you would want to care enough to take the initiative to make this the best damn musical community we possibly can.

Would you want to force people to care? Your views are dangerous. You can not and should not ever attempt to force people to care for any reason. All thoughts expressed are by our own will. To think that people should care is fine, but anything other than that is simply foolish.

No legitimate instructor of composition anywhere would think of putting a grade on an composition as part of a lesson (professors giving grades in a university/conservatory setting is a different matter; grades are part of the education system as we know it and are more or less a necessity). Grades have nothing at all to do with the things we are trying to accomplish here.

No legitimate instructor? Oh, please, get out more. I get grades on all my compositions. Do not think, however, that the grade is reflective of the final product. I think you're falling into a dangerous assumption here.

Grades are a (word I can't think of right now [philosophical] that means that a word is defined by other words, which are all defined by each other, etc.) unless there is an understanding. This topic is pointless. You're actually insulting the reviewers ;) by saying they aren't doing their job, they're just posting--

5/10!!

hahahahahahahaha!

hahahaha!

ha.

oh sorry if I hurt your feelings.

--as opposed to at least giving some constructive criticism. You may not always get what you want here, but at least accept what criticism you get. It's how people truly feel and you should always take this into consideration. Don't worry about these "number things," if you want a decent review, just ask politely in your composition topic. Although it's a bit grating to the reviewers, considering they have a lot of professional experience. And also if you're having trouble accepting a score and would rather accept how people feel in a manner similar to that score, you're in denial, and should quickly get over that in order to improve your abilities . . . anyway, so.. yeah, what was I saying? Sorry if I hurt your feelings with this post, I give you a 4/10 on your behavior today. :) Just kidding.

Wow, you are blowing this insanely out of proportion. My views are dangerous, and I am making dangerous assumptions here? Wow. That's a little extreme, don't you think? Please explain to me how my ideas are physically, emotionally, or otherwise harmful to anything around here. Answer: they're not, because it's precisely that emotional harm that I'm trying to help other young, ambitious composers avoid around here. And yet you have the audacity to call my ideas dangerous.

Now, to show that your responses are little more than vacuous rhetoric:

If you limit one means of review you do not remove the motivation (or lack thereof) of the reviewer. You will do nothing but remove one means of conveying an idea. ... In fact, by removing the easy you make it much worse for people who want to express distaste.

No, a grade is not a means of conveying any idea that is worth anything at all here. If a person wants to express distaste for my music, it is absolutely absurd to post "2/10." Don't be lazy. Tell me why you didn't like it. Tell me what you would have improved, or what was so objectionable about it. Removing a meaningless way of conveying a meaningless idea helps to ensure that reviewers will actually give thought to the music they are reviewing and make meaningful comments.

And how, pray tell, are words any better? ... The numbers are merely for simplicity's sake. ... You better start limiting the use of words too.

Sure, why don't we all just label all the great pieces of the classical repertoire with a 10/10 and leave it at that? Don't discuss them. Don't try to understand them beyond a number. Keep it "simple." Don't dare think about what makes them great pieces in the first place. A number is all we need to grasp the greatness of a Mahler symphony or a Mozart sonata.

-_-

Do not try to logically extend my argument past the point of where it can truly go. This is a low blow. You understand full well what I am suggesting, and no extension of my suggestion would involve dumbing or paring down reviews. In fact the effect of my suggestion would be to encourage richer, more detailed reviews in place of the artificial and useless simplicity of the grade.

No legitimate instructor? Oh, please, get out more. I get grades on all my compositions. Do not think, however, that the grade is reflective of the final product. I think you're falling into a dangerous assumption here.

Well, I would argue against you, but you just did it for yourself all in one paragraph. It's precisely as you said it! The grade given in a composition lesson is more for progress and effort than the final product. But grades given as part of reviews are grades of the product -- not of the process or the improvement made by the composer. If you had read what I wrote more carefully, you would see that it is you who are assuming that I am making a dangerous assumption.

Be careful of what you accuse people of if you haven't first carefully considered their opinions. You can make a lot of enemies that way.

Seems pretty simple. If someone doesn't like the way the review tactics/techniques are moving, they don't post music. The only problem is that if the reviewer doesn't post music, you can't determine her/his musical skill/qualities so thus can't evaluate the review.

The politics of this place are.....curious at times.

I think as long as the review and justifies his/her score/percentage, "letter" grade or "this is good" "this is bad"/ it's okay. Some people are qualitative people, they might prefer a vague "this is good, this is so-so". But, others are more quantitative, they understand more from numbers.

You're telling me banning something that could possibly help someone along with a regular review is not extreme?? Oh my god, we're all going to be emotionally damaged if you tell us our pieces are 2/10. If you give it 2/10, there's a reason for it! There's never emotional damage if you're mature enough to take the criticism along with it.

Listen.. this will never be banned, so lets just leave this alone and break up the arguments, since it's a waste of all of our breath.. we should be doing something much more constructive.

Listen.. this will never be banned, so lets just leave this alone and break up the arguments, since it's a waste of all of our breath.. we should be doing something much more constructive.

I think you're right. While I still stand behind my original position, it is apparent that not enough of the rest of the community is on my side. My only regret is that we had to come to tense argument over it.

Politics and pillockry, matey.

In fact, I'm probably on your side. It depends on one's pretext for posting music here. If you're looking for answers to specific questions about your work, then a school-masterly rating upon 10 won't be much use. If you post to see if people like your piece, it'll probably be ok.

No worries... nobody thinks any less or more of you or less or more of anyone here, so no harm was done. It's in the past.