Mozart

I never disputed that he already had the overture in mind, just that maybe he didn't have every single note in mind. Surely he could have used material from the overture in the penultimate scene without having fixed every detail of the overture yet.

Not even to mention that it's technically impossible to determine exactly which of two variants came first. He -might- have written the penultimate scene first and extended some material in a different form in the overture. I'm not saying it was like this and probably it's more likely that he had the base material in mind before composing either of these pieces, but just that from music alone you can't say with certainty which was first. I've seen lots of pieces that seem like some idea B was derived from idea A, but then some musicologists determine that it was just the other way round. Until yet other musicologists say that it was entirely different again.

But I don't want to argue. It's very possible, even probable, that you are right. And I'm really unfamiliar with Don Giovanni (I haven't heard/seen it since I was a kid and since then just excerpts). Just saying that music alone rarely gives you certainty over anything.

Surely he could have used material from the overture in the penultimate scene without having fixed every detail of the overture yet.

It makes sense if you know Don Giovanni.

Not even to mention that it's technically impossible to determine exactly which of two variants came first.

We all know he had [the overture] already composed [i.e., in his head'], and only wrote it out the night before the first performance

I love it when people read through my posts.

Not to mention that it was, and has been standard practice for some time to write the overture last. If this is what it says in Mozart biographies [that he wrote it the night before], then why should we doubt them, and assume Mozart crazily went against the whole tradition?

May as well assume Beethoven was black, and his 9th symphony was actually written by the very young Liszt, who had 11 fingers.

When did I claim he didn't write the overture last? I don't doubt that in the least. I only questioned the one thing one can't know a fact, i.e. what Mozart exactly had in his mind.

And yes, I have to submit to your argument "It makes sense if you know Don Giovanni", as yes, I don't know it too well. But my argument should be rather independant of knowledge of any work, so I think my point would be the same if I knew Don Giovanni better. Of course I don't know that for sure.

P.S. Oh, I see now what made you think I doubted that the ouverture was written last. It's the "which of two variants came first" quote, right? I didn't mean which was first written down, but which was first conceived.

Wow; reached a whole new level.

I fold.

Apparently I said something super stupid. Must be because it's late and I'm tired; that usually makes me say stupid things.

May I remind everyone that Mozart was raised by a very good (though not great) composer whose works were publicly performed? In fact, Leopold Mozart has been studied by theorists and musicologists as one of a significant group of composers bridging the late Baroque and early Classical styles.

I don't listen much to Mozart only because there is a bit TOO much in the marketplace. I defintely enjoy playing ome of his works and when I listen to excellent performances of Mozart (which there are not many), the experience is great and I appreciate his mastery.

Mozart was the best and will always be the best composer to have ever walked this earth. Enough said. :D

PS. He totally owns Beethoven in the face

HIGH FIVE!!!!:D

*sees Beethoven's fans around, smiles at them guiltily. runs away.*