Electronic Music

Alot of music, escpeccially now, is begining to use the synthesizer guitar and keyboard. You know, with the techno rythms and all. What's your opinion on these 'instruments?' Do you think its harming the quality of music? I'm gunnu have to say I love Keyboard type instruments alot, just because of the effects they can create that aren't possible with accoustic instruments. Then again, you need real instruments as well to create a good song. So yes, I like electronic instruments, but dislike when thats all they use.

For me electronic is a big step for mankind and as such is for music too. It's can be used to make anything you can do with accustic instruments (if you got money that is), even do more! It CAN harm the quality of music if used inproperly, but then again accustic instruments can do the same. However electronic music presents a whole new view of music itself, and no basic "rules" have been established for use of eletronic instuments, so i wont try to say much about using them. I couldn't ever say i'm sorry people now use electronic music more then accustic, but i like it soooo much better to hear a huge symphonic orchestra play!

Ya, I think that electronic music lacks depth at times myself, being, synthetic instruments. On the other hands, synth instruments can do impossible things, and thats awesome.

For me electronic is a big step for mankind and as such is for music too. It's can be used to make anything you can do with accustic instruments (if you got money that is), even do more! It CAN harm the quality of music if used inproperly, but then again accustic instruments can do the same. However electronic music presents a whole new view of music itself, and no basic "rules" have been established for use of eletronic instuments, so i wont try to say much about using them.

I totally agree with what you just said.

The way i see it, the synthetizer/computer is a GREAT tool. You can compose for a rythm section or orchestra or whatever and actually listen to what you write in a set of speakers and not just in your head. On the other hand, you can create any sound not found in nature and that is just amazing. It expands the possibilities and let's us experiment without frontiers. i.e. Edgar Varese's "Poeme Electronique" would not have been born without electronics.

As Wolf_88 said, "It CAN harm the quality of music if used inproperly, but then again accustic instruments can do the same".

Originally posted by Lord Sorasen@Oct 1 2005, 02:29 AM

Ya, I think that electronic music lacks depth at times myself, being, synthetic instruments.

Well, ya, maybe sometime in the future, but thats really pretty much unrelated.

Originally posted by Lord Sorasen@Oct 2 2005, 03:38 AM

Well, ya, maybe sometime in the future, but thats really pretty much unrelated.

Let's not forget how electronics may interact with acousticly produced music.

All sounds have to have an origin. They can either be a) synthesised or b) acoustic. The synthesised method speaks for itself. Acoustic sounds are those that are produced by acoustic means whether or not they are recorded or played live. I like working with acoustic-electronic music (I use that term now rather than electro-acoustic for reasons of semantics).

If you understand how an electric guitar works, you understand how a basic acoustic-electronic system can work. (An electric guitar produces sound by acoustic means: the terms 'acoustic guitar' and 'electric guitar' refer to the treatment of the sounds and not the production of the sounds.) The acoustic sound is picked up and transmitted to an amplifier, usually via simple electronics to alter or treat the sound. I enjoy doing this kind of thing with all sorts of instruments. The last was with a Piano, though this wasn't 'live': due to the nature of the piece, I treated and sequenced the Piano on a computer. However, most of it could have been performed live.

In two weeks, I shall be taking part in a project in Norway which uses electronics and/or computers in order to process live video and sound feeds. This should be quite exciting and interesting. Some results will be posted on my website during and after the week.

That sounds interesting! How did you arrange for that project, David? Did you meet some people while you were over there, or did it arise in some other way?

What I'm about to say may sound strange coming from a person who, possibly, if all goes well, might actually get a life performance of his G major Symphony in the not too distant future. But understand, it's the first piece I've heard performed in years. Many years. Too many years. And since it's a community orchestra, it's likely to be a somewhat substandard performance. That's OK, I'll take it anyway.

I'm coming to appreciate and like the electronic music I make, though it consists mainly of playing back a traditional score through Finale. I'm beginning to think I might prefer it. This of course may be sour grapes, but I don't care.

I've struggled for years trying to get performances of pieces, and it seems the better a composer I become, the more difficult it becomes to get people to perform things.

Case in point: I've worked at my current church job as a singer for 10 years. When my director invited me to show him some compositions several years ago, I hesitated, but finally I gave him my "Missa Brevis" to look at - no pressure, just look at it. He set it down on the piano in the choir rehearsal room, promising to give it a look later, and there it sat and never moved - for 5 months. I finally picked it up one day and took it home, and he never even noticed. I'd rather he'd have told me it was awful and he hated it than to pretend it didn't exist. In May, I showed him a set of "Preces and Responses" I'd written for the Anglican Evensong service, and all he could come up with by way of reply (in an e-mail) was, "well, you certainly have your part writing down." No further comment. It was a good piece - as good as at least half of the ones we use regularly, even one by William Byrd - yet that was all he could come up with for a staff singer after a decade of loyal service and friendship.

I realise my music isn't going to shatter the earth, but I had my "part writing down" when I was 15. It was a slight, and an insult, and we both knew it. I suppose he thought he was gently putting me back in my place.

At least I'm lucky enough that someone is at least interested in performing one of my pieces, but after years of the kind of struggle, disrespect and disinterest I've just outlined, I'm gradually becoming of the mind that "real" musicians are more trouble than they're worth. I like being able to press "Play" and have a computer on demand produce for me an accurate (if lifeless) rendering of my music, anytime I like, without argument or demurral. I still write as if for humans, but I'm sick of the hassle of dealing with human musicians with their temperaments, petty jealousies, prejudices and limitations. Sure, their humanity brings a lot to the table during a live performance, but you have to deal with the rest of it, provided you can even get a performance in the first place.

Musicians (myself included) are finding themselves increasingly replaced by electronics, and people are becoming more accustomed to the sound of electronic performances. Time was musicians could make a tidy living at their art, but that's getting harder every day. Small wonder. I'm not saying it's right - only that I'm beginning to understand why.

Do any of you feel similarly, or not?

I think this all boils down to elitism in music. Performance majors, in their education, are seemingly brought up to adopt elitist attitudes (as in most other professions). It's really sickening how this is what professors are passing on to their pupils, and not the values of humility in musicianship.

Woah, an electric-accoustic piano? Thats awesome! Did it sound any diffrent than a normal piano?

Originally posted by The Baroque Enthusiast@Oct 2 2005, 06:55 PM

I think this all boils down to elitism in music. Performance majors, in their education, are seemingly brought up to adopt elitist attitudes (as in most other professions). It's really sickening how this is what professors are passing on to their pupils, and not the values of humility in musicianship.

Elitism? what exacly do you mean by that? there is always a right way t play something and the wrong one. how does elitism fit there?

Elitism is the core of the problem. If the performers didn't think as highly of themselves as they do, and had a little more respect for their colleages, then maybe things like the incident J. Lee described wouldn't happen.

Another example of elitism causing problems in general: I'm a college freshman now, and I've recently auditioned for and joined the school's baroque ensemble. The group is new, starting its second year, and there are only a few members (me - bass-baritone, 2 harpsichordists, a cellist, and 2 flute soloists). We really do have a good vibe going with the group, and we've been making a lot of good music. Just the other day we read through a few arias, and we came across one that we really liked.....the only problem was it had a violin obbligato. I asked: "why can't we just ask one of the violinists to come join the group?"

To make a long story short, we're not doing that aria, thanks to our snotty violinist community. Its not even that they didn't have the time, or weren't into the style. Just the fact that the group was "too new" turned them off to the idea: it was "above" them. This is the type of attitude I'm talking about, and it's clearly not one that promotes the spread of good music and good feelings.

"That sounds interesting! How did you arrange for that project, David? Did you meet some people while you were over there, or did it arise in some other way?"

I was sent an email by a colleague who thought the project was of interest to me. It was, so I applied. I was invited. So I am going! http://www.soundsnorthern.net/ will be where I will post things during the project. Obviously there is not much there at the moment.

"Woah, an electric-accoustic piano? Thats awesome! Did it sound any diffrent than a normal piano?"

There are some sounds that are identifiable, of course. This particular track is not very heavily treated, so it's much more acoustic than electronic. However, I intend to do more! http://hately.demon.co.uk/memory001.ogg

It's not the best of recordings: I had a heavy cold at the time, so I didn't hear the background noise when I was editing the final sound file.

Originally posted by The Baroque Enthusiast@Oct 3 2005, 01:14 AM

Elitism is the core of the problem. If the performers didn't think as highly of themselves as they do, and had a little more respect for their colleages, then maybe things like the incident J. Lee described wouldn't happen.

Another example of elitism causing problems in general: I'm a college freshman now, and I've recently auditioned for and joined the school's baroque ensemble. The group is new, starting its second year, and there are only a few members (me - bass-baritone, 2 harpsichordists, a cellist, and 2 flute soloists). We really do have a good vibe going with the group, and we've been making a lot of good music. Just the other day we read through a few arias, and we came across one that we really liked.....the only problem was it had a violin obbligato. I asked: "why can't we just ask one of the violinists to come join the group?"

To make a long story short, we're not doing that aria, thanks to our snotty violinist community. Its not even that they didn't have the time, or weren't into the style. Just the fact that the group was "too new" turned them off to the idea: it was "above" them. This is the type of attitude I'm talking about, and it's clearly not one that promotes the spread of good music and good feelings.

Along the lines of the origins of sounds, as David was talking about, I have a couple recommendations for listening.

1. Jonty Harrison - Unsound Objects - manipulated water, mostly, with a few other things

2. Ake Parmerud - Alias - an electronically manipulated version of a Renaissance madrigal

Both of these use acoustically produced sound to create their music. I find Alias to be extraordinarily effective, because it takes the meaning of the original madrigal and pushes it further by twisting the sounds.

Electronic music takes just as much artistry as acoustic music - the only difference is that the performance instrument is a CD, rather than a violin or piano, for instance.

And along the lines of elitism:

I find this discussion of unwillingness by a community of instrumentalists disturbing. Granted, some performers will be assholes. That's just the way the world is.

Now, it could be I'm living in a very special place, but Oberlin Conservatory has a wide variety of performance groups, ranging in style from contemporary music ensembles that play Ligeti, Kagel, and Takemitsu, to klezmer bands. Students are encouraged to find whatever ensembles they need, and if they can't find them, to create them. After talking to many people from a variety of ensembles, the only problem that arises is the unavailability of performers who have spread themselves too thin by indulging in all their interests.

I would strongly question a whole community of instrumentalists who play certain types of music to the exclusion of all others, and would further question the validity of instruction those instrumentalists were receiving.

It has been my experience that no matter the music, there will be someone to play it.

I think I probably just restated the previous post, but the message is this:

Don't give up hope!

Christopher Dunn-Rankin, you make me wish I had gone to Oberlin. (Not that I have stopped regretting the decision since making it). I'm at Rice instead, and interested people (in the most general sense) are much too few. In all of my pursuits of awesome things I get hardly enough sympathizers and participants to be very encouraging.

But back onto topic. One thing I have great trouble sorting out is the relationship between effort and output, between how hard one works on something and how desirable the result is. The prevalent paradigm is that the more work that goes in, the better a product that comes out. Unless, I suppose, you realized that you were deluded while doing all that hard work, that your decisions were not made under criteria that you wanted to have.

Things like putting lots and lots of exacting work to construct an electronic piece or learn an instrument have their values strengthened by an assumed respect for that which is hard, that which takes time. When in fact a lot of effort can easily go to waste. And conversely, things that were very easy to make can be amazing in the right context. Technology figures in here somewhere; things that used to be hard have become easier, or sometimes no challenge at all. Well, I'm thinking of a player piano's ability to rip notes at breakneck speeds (but part of that issue is tied up with the loss of the struggle of a pianist...and humanness and all that which I didn't mean to get into)

Can anyone finish this thought? I don't know where I was going.

They are fun to play but I don't think their color is were for some of the music they are changing. :D

If you want to hear Electronica at it's best, listen to Radiohead's Kid A... brilliant.

Hate them. They never seem to work for me. Much prefer acoustic instruments - they don't run out of battery, they don't break as easily.

I heartily agree, unless of course the electronic music is a specific sound that can't be emulated by a real one

Electronic instruments are good in specific situations. I'm a big fan of Trance and DnB, so I love synthesized sounds. They have more capabilities IMO. Trance and DnB both rely on changing cut off and resonance, which kinda makes up for the lack of dynamics.

Electronic instruments can't do everything that acoustic instruments can do (That's why no synth is gonna get between me and my classical guitar :( ).

To me electronic instruments are just more possibilites.

(Woo! First post :P .)

Although this is diverging a bit from the topic at hand, I've found that this dictates what I write - mainly string trio or quartet, since I know people that would be willing to play them, whereas I know fewer (competent) percussionists or (any) windists (I know there's a better term here but it escapes me at the moment).

Also, I compose. I don't play any instruments, and I'm not very good at composing (or maybe I'm just amazing but humble :whistling: ) but the point is, it feels presumptuous asking someone who has put in years of learning an instrument to play something by me, who has put in months of learning composition.