Composing and Developing Melodies

First off I would like to say that I am struggling at composing. I have neat ideas sometimes. I also have very cool harmonic structures. I really like some of what I get started on, but I have a problem that is dragging me down and keeping me from really getting anything done. That problem is that in my ideas and harmonies I have no real definable melody and/or direction to the piece. I seem to start with the motivation of comming up with the coolest chord or small chord progression that I can think of. I then get lost in that idea and forget about a definable melody and then developing that melody into a full length piece. I also try to come up with stuff that has never been done before. I really like the atmospheric quality of Debussy's piano pieces and sometime I try to emulate that (I fail miserably of course). The reason I do this is because I hate to write "plunk em' out things". What I mean is that I cannot stand to end up with something that would sound like it is out of an Alfred book. I love the Impressionism of Ravel and Debussy. I also love the contemporary music of Bernstein and Barber. I always try to avoid getting stuck on something that is as simple as the basic I, IV, V chord progression like I have seen in Mozart and Beethoven's earliest stuff (I am not saying that I do not like Beethoven and Mozart). I would like to go beyond the simply writing cadences with Alred book melodies over the top of them.

So, my question is this: How do you guys come up with a cool melody with which to develope an actual full length composition off of? Then, how do you develope that melody and the accompaniment or orchestration so that the piece flows and sounds like it has a purpose? Also, after you have been using an idea to accompany your melody for a while, how do you stop that idea and start up with another one without making everything sound so displaced or like it is comming from out of nowhere?

Could you go into detail about studying scores and what to do step by step? I know you sort of explained it to me once, but I don't know where to begin. So you listen for the theme, etc., but specifically do you want to do with the harmonic structure? How do you identify it? What do you do after you've identified it?

I'm not sure if there's a single way to go about studying a score - it depends heavily on what exactly you're looking to get out of a particular score.

RRR - I would perhaps suggest that you should not think in terms of melody and accompaniment: it's quite surprising how often you'll find a theme or at least a motive recurring in what seems at first to be accompaniment. I haven't studied the Impressionists much, but one of the things that happens often in Romantic music (I'm particularly thinking of Brahms) is the sort of transition where a line that was "accompaniment" transitions into melody, without breaking its flow. For me, at least, transitions are probably the hardest part of writing music... I'm rarely ever satisfied with them.

So, when you study a score, for the purpose of getting better at your own compositional skills, are you looking to figure out how the composer did what he did and then use that idea in your own work? Can it be that studying a score will just spark your own imagination and not just be a mode of copyrighting another composer? Also, how do you study a score? If you are not very versed in the terms and technical jargon of composition theory and how it all works then are you pretty much at a loss for gaining anything by studying a score?

Nico - I think I know what you are talking about when you talk about having the music be based off of other stuff. I think you mean that you get inspiration and and idea of where you want the piece to go by interpreting a poem or a painting or anything else. At least that is what I thought you meant. Also, could you go through some examples (maybe not real examples but theoretical examples) of planning your compositions. I think this would be one of the most beneficial things for me at the moment.

Caltech - What other ways of transitioning are there? I know what kind of accompaniment transitions into melody and then the other way around that you are talking about. You reminded me a lot of Tchaikovsky especially in the 1812 Overture and the Romeo and Juliet Overture. I know that not all compositions are this way. Some are not so grand and even not in the same style as a Romantic composers composition.

Thank you guys so far for your replies. The posts are helpful to me and I am sure to others who are stuggling with the same problems that I am. If I could just learn to get around this problem and compose more easily and freely and also doing more of what I want to than I would be cranking things out really fast and I would spend much more time doing it. I just don't ever seem to get anywhere when I compose now and I also usually feel like throwing out what I have worked on when I am done so I really kind of give up for periods of time. I have another problem that I would like to address. I just go about my day and just start composing in my head. Sometimes I get a melody or an idea and I run with it by humming or tapping or whatever, but when I get to writing it down I have a problem. I never really know what instruments to pick in the orchestration and I also don't know other things like what key signature, what chord was I hearing, what time signature was that in, etc. By the time I figure any off that stuff out I have lost the idea and then the motivation to continue. Is there a strategy that you guys use to keep the idea present in your mind over a period of time so that you can figure out the notation without losing your idea much less your mind? Sometimes I have really cool ideas and the only way I have of keeping that idea present is to hum it or to try and memorize the melody or bits and piece of it on the piano. I think that if I just had a way of keeping that idea over a period of time then I would be able to spend more time trying to firgure out the notation without having the idea slowly slip away.

Thank you guys so far for your replies. The posts are helpful to me and I am sure to others who are stuggling with the same problems that I am. If I could just learn to get around this problem and compose more easily and freely and also doing more of what I want to than I would be cranking things out really fast and I would spend much more time doing it. I just don't ever seem to get anywhere when I compose now and I also usually feel like throwing out what I have worked on when I am done so I really kind of give up for periods of time. I have another problem that I would like to address. I just go about my day and just start composing in my head. Sometimes I get a melody or an idea and I run with it by humming or tapping or whatever, but when I get to writing it down I have a problem. I never really know what instruments to pick in the orchestration and I also don't know other things like what key signature, what chord was I hearing, what time signature was that in, etc. By the time I figure any off that stuff out I have lost the idea and then the motivation to continue. Is there a strategy that you guys use to keep the idea present in your mind over a period of time so that you can figure out the notation without losing your idea much less your mind? Sometimes I have really cool ideas and the only way I have of keeping that idea present is to hum it or to try and memorize the melody or bits and piece of it on the piano. I think that if I just had a way of keeping that idea over a period of time then I would be able to spend more time trying to firgure out the notation without having the idea slowly slip away.

If you're trying to compose more quickly, I'm the wrong person to ask - I'm still working on my third composition in my life, and I've been composing for over 4 years now.

That said, for getting ideas down, I would suggest practicing taking musical dictation. Listen to short snippets of music and try to write down a melody as you hear it, or immediately after you hear it. The idea here is to make the notation second nature, so that you don't have to remember much. These days, when I have a musical idea (these are few and far between - I only think of a melody once every 2-3 weeks), I get it down on paper almost as fast as it develops in my mind.

How do you study scores?

Just start listening. Recently (that is, in the past two months) I've gotten on a big listening binge. For a couple of hours each day I go to the music library, check out a couple of scores and recordings, and listen to the pieces. The stuff I like, I listen through a second or third time. But what do I listen for? Anything my ear can hear. Melodic lines. Orchestration. Phrase structure. Overall form. Harmony. Anything you can hear, pay attention to it, because this is how the ear and the musical sense develops.

It's most important to mention that over the past couple of months my ear for listening to classical music has improved dramatically, and it's not because I've actually exerted any conscious 'effort' to become a better listener. Just do the listening -- and don't worry about if you're doing it the 'right' way -- and the mind has this remarkable way of finding the right way given enough time and room to grow.

I really like Nico's idea about how the composing of music should not be "musical" per se. Allow me to amend. See, we look at a Beethoven score and see the fluid, inexorable development of musical ideas and we think, "Wow! How musical! I want to use some of these techniques in my compositions," whereupon we rush to the score page, begin trying to work Beethoven's devices into some of our ideas, and end with a piece that is clumsily derivative at best, or just quit altogether in frustration.

The reason this happens is because we're trying to tackle the process of composition from the outside in, that is, we try to use the intellect to consciously apply compositional "devices" (such as variation of melody, paced climaxes, counterpoint, and a slew of other things) to our music, when in reality good music is an event that only happens from the inside out. This is why Nico's idea is really good. Starting your musical process away from the music itself is a way to help you get out of the outside-in mentality and in to your musical intuitions, where all great musical ideas come from.

All that said, it nevertheless remains important that you develop your musical abilities in as many ways as possible. Practice dictation. Learn theory (NOT just traditional roman-numeral theory; I need to make a thread about this sooner or later). Practice sight-singing. Get really good on your chosen instrument. Learn piano, if it isn't your primary instrument, and learn to sight-read. And listen, listen, listen, to as much music as you can possibly get your hands on. All these things slowly but surely hone your inner musical intuitions, so that when it comes time to sit down and write a piece of music, it flows naturally and is something truly worth listening to.

That's probably the most intelligent piece of advice that's ever been offered on this forum.

Thank you.

....-_-

I meant aerlinndan, for those of you who didn't catch CA's sarcasm.

I mean aerlinndan too.

Ah okay, my bad ;)

*first post!*

from my experience.. the best way to come up with a melody that suits a chord progression i have written is to internalize that chord progression as much as possible, and then start singing melodies in my head. This works much better for me than trying a formulaic approach.

I think that it is really really important for the most obvious melodic aspect of a piece to have a natural feel/sound to it.. RE-harmonizing the melody is where the theory comes in for me.