The evil harp

Ok, in my quest to get really high marks on a coursework piece I've decided to try and write an orchestral piece that focuses a lot on the harp (not like a concerto, but where it is a key part of everything) and I'm sitting here with my orchestration book infront of me, water + paracetamol at the other side and I am totally confused.

I just have a few questions

1) If I have no chromatic notes I don't need to change any pedals, right?

2) If I do, how do I notate to change pedals on Sibelius?

3) If I want an arpeggiated chord do I use the normal arpeggiated symbol that the piano uses, or a different one?

4) Are there any pluggins for harp-writing in Sibelius, or any way to check if something is playable without actually having to ask a harpist?

5) I want to write this, and I'm not sure how it is notated for the harp, it's the left hand (lower strings) playing an arpeggio (3 or 4 strings I haven't decided yet) while the right hand playing the higher notes plays slow minor second intervals and slowly climbs a scale, any ideas?

Thanks so much if anyone here can help me!!!!

- Alex.

1) If I have no chromatic notes I don't need to change any pedals, right?

2) If I do, how do I notate to change pedals on Sibelius?

3) If I want an arpeggiated chord do I use the normal arpeggiated symbol that the piano uses, or a different one?

4) Are there any pluggins for harp-writing in Sibelius, or any way to check if something is playable without actually having to ask a harpist?

5) I want to write this, and I'm not sure how it is notated for the harp, it's the left hand (lower strings) playing an arpeggio (3 or 4 strings I haven't decided yet) while the right hand playing the higher notes plays slow minor second intervals and slowly climbs a scale, any ideas?

1. unless your piece is in C flat major, then yes, there WILL be at least a bit of pedalling. With the harp, you have 7 strings, tuned C through B, all of them flat. By bringing all of the pedals to the median position you get a scale of C major.

2. indicate simply the name of the note between the two staves of the harp part: if the note F will be going from F# to F natural, then simply write F natural (the symbol, not the word) at a conveniant place in the staff, preferably at the end of a musical line (you are telling the harpist that when they next play, the F will be a natural. that way they have time to change the pedal)

3. Generally speaking, all chords on the harp will be arpeggiated. This of course, depends partially on the style of music, but can be taken as a general guideline. Therefore, the opposite is more applicable in harp notation - "non arp." to indicate that a chord must NOT be rolled.

4. Unfortunately, I can't help with Sibelius. However, generally speaking, if it can be comfortably played at the piano, then it can probably comfortably be played on the harp. This is a VERY loose guideline. Do not expect to get runs of heavy chords

I would really advise against thinking about the piano at all when writing a harp part. There's really not much to say that an idiomatic piano passage is also idiomatic for the harp, or vice versa, so you're probably better off remodeling your thinking from the ground up, so to speak. The basic fact alone that a harpist uses four fingers and a pianist five has far-reaching consequences in what sort of passages either of them tend to like. If you're aiming not only for playable but also comfortable, the piano guideline won't be much help.

You might also like to look for a more comprehensive orchestration book, or one dealing more with the harp in particular. It might answer a lot of questions. As far as web resources go, this looks pretty good: Harp Spectrum

I would really advise against thinking about the piano at all when writing a harp part. There's really not much to say that an idiomatic piano passage is also idiomatic for the harp, or vice versa, so you're probably better off remodeling your thinking from the ground up, so to speak. The basic fact alone that a harpist uses four fingers and a pianist five has far-reaching consequences in what sort of passages either of them tend to like. If you're aiming not only for playable but also comfortable, the piano guideline won't be much help.

As I said "a very loose guideline". I didn't say that an idiomatic piano passage was good harp writing.

A properly written harp part, taking into consideration the limitations of the instrument, should be playable at the piano. The reason a piano part MAY be used as a sort of comparison is that the distance for finger positions is RELATIVELY similar. In other words, if the spacing for fingers is completely impossible on the piano, there is a very good chance that it is also impossible at the harp.

A properly written harp part, taking into consideration the limitations of the instrument, should be playable at the piano. The reason a piano part MAY be used as a sort of comparison is that the distance for finger positions is RELATIVELY similar. In other words, if the spacing for fingers is completely impossible on the piano, there is a very good chance that it is also impossible at the harp.

Good points. A comparison is far from useless; I was merely advising caution against adopting the practice of writing pianistic parts in lieu of actually learning how the instrument works.

Well say I have the pedals tuned to a D minor scale (as I have in my piece)

Is it not easy to use minor seconds, alternating between the A and Bb strings?

Thank you for your answers, they really helped.. one last thing that will be of great help is:

6) Can anyone tell me, let's say if a harpist stretched out their hands (average) size, what intervals can they get, like on a piano if I stretch all my fingers out and my RIGHT hand, my thumb is on C, I can get....

C, G, A, B, D

so between my thumb and little finger I can get a 9th, if I know how far (about) harpists can stretch their fingers, it will make it easier for me to see if it's plausable for them to voice a certain chord?

7) Also: If I have (per hand) a 3 note chord that is in the same octave, a harpist shouldn't have any trouble playing it, right? (pedals according, of course)

Thanks again for the help!

As someone who's been playing harp for two years, I have some knowledge in this area.

Generally speaking, all chords on the harp will be arpeggiated.

Definitely not true. Though chords of four notes tend to be arpeggiated and are easier that way, they aren't always arpeggiated and the default is for them to be regular. This is definitely true with the more common three-note chords. The harp arpeggiation symbol is a vertical wavy line; I have no idea what it is for piano.

If I have no chromatic notes I don't need to change any pedals, right?

If you have a seven-note scale, that's correct. The pedals will have to be set prior to playing (unless you're playing in C-flat major), but they don't have to be changed unless there's an accidental or modulation.

I want to write this, and I'm not sure how it is notated for the harp, it's the left hand (lower strings) playing an arpeggio (3 or 4 strings I haven't decided yet) while the right hand playing the higher notes plays slow minor second intervals and slowly climbs a scale, any ideas?

No problem; just notate it on a grand staff, much as you would a piano. If it's chromatic, though, make sure not to make it too fast, as the harpist needs to change pedals while playing, though anything you characterize as "slow" should not be a problem for a harpist.

Can anyone tell me, let's say if a harpist stretched out their hands (average) size, what intervals can they get

Firstly, a harpist, doesn't use pinkies, so only has four fingers. Secondly, both the right and left hand play the higher notes with their thumbs. Both of these make it hard to compare to your piano reach. However, with an open hand (which is a special hand position for long intervals, and is hard to do with fast passages with the index or middle finger), a chord of thumb and ring finger can reach maybe 10-12 strings, an octave and a half. I currently have a piece with a recurring interval of D-F an octave above (nine strings), and do it without much trouble.

If I have (per hand) a 3 note chord that is in the same octave, a harpist shouldn't have any trouble playing it, right?

That's correct. If you mean a simple triad like C-E-G, that's really easy, but even things like C-G-C or C-E-G-C (with four fingers) are not a problem.

Feel free to PM me when you write the piece, and I'll tell you if it's playable.

this whole question of rolled/not-rolled chords on the harp is, exactly as I wrote in my post, partially a question of musical style - ie: what style of music it is you are playing. In a romantic orcehstral score for example, more often than not, chords will be rolled. As I said it can be "taken as a general guideline".

It IS more idiomatic on the harp to roll a 6-note chord than to pluck it "non-arp.".

An orchestral score would become terribly cluttered if the composer had to notate every single rolled chord.

I wish people would read entire sentences instead of latching onto one bit and then disagreeing with something that ends up being true in the end. I guess no one can tell from my post that I wasn't giving a detailed "lesson in wrting for the harp" but was trying to give a few extremely general guidelines to simplify matters as much as possible for someone who admits to never having written for harp?

I wish people would read entire sentences instead of latching onto one bit and then disagreeing with something that ends up being true in the end. I guess no one can tell from my post that I wasn't giving a detailed "lesson in wrting for the harp" but was trying to give a few extremely general guidelines to simplify matters as much as possible for someone who admits to never having written for harp?

I think we're all just trying to give Alex the best and most comprehensive advice we can. Nothing worse than that. Relax a bit.

I think we're all just trying to give Alex the best and most comprehensive advice we can. Nothing worse than that. Relax a bit.

actually, I'm about as relaxed as can be :P

but this is a common situation on this forum, and it's not particularly productive.

someone asks a beginner question.

someone answers with a generalization.

someone else pops in and contradicts with details that are considerably beyond the scope of the original question, and which only reflect 2-3 words from one of the previous responses.

I guess I just expect a certain degree of camaraderie between musicians, rather than constant attempts at oneupsmanship.

/shrug

Normally, I'd just leave this alone, but I assume your remarks are directed partially at me (if I'm mistaken, never mind). My point is that what you characterize as "constant attempts at oneupsmanship" are likely to be plain and simple attempts at answering the original question as well as possible. I can see no reason whatsoever to read into it anything more personal or serious than that.

Anyway, we're getting about as far from the topic of this thread as is possible, so sorry Alex, and I'll shut up now.

Normally, I'd just leave this alone, but I assume your remarks are directed partially at me (if I'm mistaken, never mind). My point is that what you characterize as "constant attempts at oneupsmanship" are likely to be plain and simple attempts at answering the original question as well as possible. I can see no reason whatsoever to read into it anything more personal or serious than that.

Anyway, we're getting about as far from the topic of this thread as is possible, so sorry Alex, and I'll shut up now.

no, the oneupsmanship comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at a general tone many threads take on this forum.

and I'll shut up too, now.