Counterpoint and Harmony.

Hi, everyone!

I am new to this youngcomposers.com world, but I must say I was really excited that such community exists online!

I am a music enthusiast and I have bought many books on music theory, orchestration and composition. My doubts resides in these... I am focusing on 3 of WALTER PISTON's books - Harmony, Counterpoint and Orchestration, but now I come across a small doubt: is there an order I should respect when reading these books? I mean, should I take Harmony first, then Counterpoint and finally Orchestration? Should I read them all at the same time (though this might be confusing)

It's just that I don't want to start off with the wrong foot with these, since I treasure a good musical foundation.

Please help me out here, guys (and girls)!

Thank you all!

Musically yours,

Eduardo Hans.

Harmony first, then Counterpoint and finally Orchestration

That's the way I'm trying to learn, but I did glimpse counterpoint over, mostly because of the richness it can add to an already established melody. Orchestration on the other hand, I see as the least needed of the three (But still very, very important of course), so I would suggest you experiment with a polyphonic instrument (Piano, guitar etcetera) or an ensemble of the same instrument types (little more difficult due to pitch limitations) before you get to that part.

Hi, Eduardo,

what kind of musical education do you already have? All Piston's book are excellent and very deep (I wish they would use such books in the conservatory in which I study). :( Assuming that you have already conquered the subject of music theory, I would definitely suggest for you to start with harmony and stick to it, until you become very-very-very good in voice leading. :toothygrin:

Cheers! ;)

I studied 4 years on the conservatory. So I think I have a pretty good foundation on music theory... Time will tell! I am currently living in Helsinki and since I do not speak finnish (yet!), I cannot attend classes on the conservatory which sucks :toothygrin:

But you know what they say: fight for it! So I'm sticking to books and some courses I have. I have Piston's books, Kent Kennan's book on Counterpoint, Jane Clendinning "The Musician's Guide to Theory and Analysis" + recordings + workbook.

I use Auralia and Musition, so I think I'd be OK for a while. The thing is I need to know what is the best method to study these topics (counterpoint, harmony and orchestration) as to not get confused at some point.

I'll stick to Harmony, giving some glances at counterpoint. I think it would be important, since harmony and counterpoint go hand in hand (or so I feel, please correct me if I'm wrong). After grabbing a good understanding of harmony, I'll move on to studying counterpoint seriously and finally (and hopefully) orchestration.

I'll stick to Harmony, giving some glances at counterpoint. I think it would be important, since harmony and counterpoint go hand in hand (or so I feel, please correct me if I'm wrong). After grabbing a good understanding of harmony, I'll move on to studying counterpoint seriously and finally (and hopefully) orchestration.

I find this an excellent approach. You can start checking out orchestration now. The first few chapters (if I remember correctly) cover instrumentation and you would have no problem understanding (and enjoying) them. Enjoy your music journey. :toothygrin:

I'd do it the other way around - counterpoint first, then harmony. It will build your respect for the interconnection of melodic lines that creates harmony.

Hi, everyone!

IMy doubts resides in these... I am focusing on 3 of WALTER PISTON's books - Harmony, Counterpoint and Orchestration, but now I come across a small doubt: is there an order I should respect when reading these books? I mean, should I take Harmony first, ...

Yes, it will save you alot of frustration by doing harmony first. Orchestration aside - once you do harmony you will fit your counterpoint to it, and by it, if you choose to follow the "rules" of good harmony. Doing it the other way around is frustrating in my experience. That partly depends on the kind of music you enjoy - tonal/modal as opposed to atonal, serial etc.

I'd go along with Mr Dunn-Rankin - because harmony is an inevitability of good counterpoint...but in practical terms you'll probably get more of a harmony perspective studying harmony first. If you play piano you can see the relationships/progressions on the keyboard.

For orchestration, you need the basic stuff in the first part of the Piston, then just study scores. You can buy textbooks with CD examples but scores and the relevant CDs are the way forward. You need to choose your pieces carefully tho. Don't jump straight in with The Rite!

If you want to write atonal it won't hurt to study traditional harmony because the notions of progression and good control still apply, so you'll be able to know better what you're doing...slapping notes all over the stave might make something atonal but that won't necessarily make a listenable composition.

Hello!

My books collection includes these three books by Piston. I used them later in my theoretical studies. And I think they are very intelligently written, although one could find that in some places there is a lot of text, sometimes too philosophical. I think that the Piston's book on Counterpoint is more thought-provoking and shows specific moments, while Kennan's is more suitable for learning the essence and the rules - they are more clearly and straight present in the Kennan's book.

In 18-century counterpoint, you should also observe the harmonic progression, that's why it is logical to learn harmony first. But before harmony you can learn 16-century counterpoint. I think this will help in developing better eye and feeling in horizontal aspect which is important. Several times, Piston reminds us in his Harmony book that harmony is actually formed by simultaneous sound of the melodic lines, this is something that must not be forgotten.

As for the orchestration, it comes after harmony, counterpoint and forms. In my humble opinion, Piston's book is more about instrumentation. I like the book "Principles of Orchestration" by Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov.

Hello!

I like the book "Principles of Orchestration" by Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov.

How about the one by Hector Berlioz and Richard Strauss?

I am sorry, I cannot give an adequate answer to your question, because I have not read the book.

"Orchestration" by ebenezer prout was good. I think it's more than one volume.

First you learn chords. Then voice motion. Harmony comes first. I dont know what some of these people are smoking.

First you learn scales and keys, then chords. Then you smoke dope.

I'd do it the other way around - counterpoint first, then harmony. It will build your respect for the interconnection of melodic lines that creates harmony.

I skimmed through the counterpoint book and I find that, as Piston teaches it, it would be close to impossible to grasp without a very solid background in / understanding of harmony. Piston recommends a year in a harmony class, but the material presented within require even more, I believe! :thumbsup:

The book by Berlioz and Richard Strauss is a great read, but it remains a relic and musical instruments have come a long way since then.

I recommend for orchestration that you check out the very popular, Sameul Adler's "Study of Orchestration" a very helpful read and for the most part... up to date :laugh:

Amazon.com: Study of Orchestration, Third Edition: Books: Samuel Adler

Forsyth's equivalent is nice too. I prefer Adler's myself though.

I have both :D...preferring Adler's, but still benefiting from Forsyth's :P

Counterpoint isn't really that complex, when one voice stops moving, or is holding a tone longer than the basic rhythmic subdivision, you let another voice start moving... Simplicity itself.

I would definitely study harmony first, and then counterpoint.

The harmonies that are created by the counterpoint, or the harmonies that you need to create, won't be easily discerned by you, or you won't understand them, or you won't fully know what to employ etc. etc.

Glassworks - that's gotta be one of the craziest* descriptions of counterpoint I've ever seen.

:P

*(read: least correct)

Counterpoint isn't really that complex, when one voice stops moving, or is holding a tone longer than the basic rhythmic subdivision, you let another voice start moving... Simplicity itself.

I was referring to Piston's approach to counterpoint. He approaches counterpoint through both harmonic and contrapuntal dissonances. He is particularly interested in the harmonic rhythm. You can't study and understand these without already knowing harmony. :cool:

Your definition of counterpoint is at best simplistic. That might be the case for some pseudo-contrapuntal two-part pieces. That is hardly what counterpoint is about, I believe. :toothygrin:

First you learn scales and keys, then chords. Then you smoke dope.

First you learn "Stairway to Heaven," then you watch Wayne's World. Realizing you're a miserable sinner, you then smash your guitar a-la Hendrix style and beg forgiveness for not being able to play Eddie Van Halen's "Eruption" by your second lesson.

(Sorry. Don't all roads lead to Rome?)

:)

Hi, everyone!

I am new to this youngcomposers.com world, but I must say I was really excited that such community exists online!

I am a music enthusiast and I have bought many books on music theory, orchestration and composition. My doubts resides in these... I am focusing on 3 of WALTER PISTON's books - Harmony, Counterpoint and Orchestration, but now I come across a small doubt: is there an order I should respect when reading these books? I mean, should I take Harmony first, then Counterpoint and finally Orchestration? Should I read them all at the same time (though this might be confusing)

It's just that I don't want to start off with the wrong foot with these, since I treasure a good musical foundation.

Please help me out here, guys (and girls)!

Thank you all!

Musically yours,

Eduardo Hans.

The order you have them in 1st Harmony 2nd Counterpoint and 3rd Orchestration is the order Id read them in. That is usually the order in which you learn as you progress through music theory. Harmony is usually referd to chords (counterpoint is also harmony for the melody) As you learn how to use chords you progress to broken chords and how they can create counter melody. Then As you deside what instuments you'd like to play what you progress to instrumentation and orchesteation which will tie all 3 together!

...i just realised that I own a Walter Piston orchestration book.

wow.

im so excited :)

If you play piano, guitar, any fully 'homophonic' instrument, start with Harmony. If you play a monophonic instrument try Counterpoint.