Tuning for Winds

Hi all,

just wondering about the following:

in a normal setting, French horns would tune to a concert Bb,

and a Bb clarinet, would tune to a concert A, as would also oboes and bassoons which are non transposing instruments.

In a symphony orchestra, the oboe gives an A and everyone tunes to it... even the French horns (so how do they do it?? do they play their E instead of an F and tune the E instead??)

Now in a wind octet setting with oboes, clarinets, horns and bassoons, what would be the best tuning approach? Should the oboist just give an A, or should he give a Bb to the horns?

In essence I'm asking two questions:

- what is the standard practice?

- how effective is it and would it be effective if the oboist gave the horn a Bb instead? (or would this cause poor tuning for ensemble as a whole?)

Let met know if anyone has comments from experience, or authoritative knowledge.

i am a horn player with about 10 years experience and curently play in a wind ensemble, orchestra, wind quintet, brass quintet, wind octet, and french horn octet. so i've tuned one or two different ways. the practice of tuning to Bb came about with the advent of the wind band and the Bb-Eb sonority system which used to contain french horns pitched in Eb in which case the Bb would be an open note(no valves depressed). however, orchestral horns are pitched in F, and after about 1937 Eb horn was all but a bad dream for horn players, the necessity of horn players to play in different ensembles i/e orchestra and wind band meant that Eb would not work with the orchestras C-F sonority system, meaning wind band now allowed horns in F, one problem though, our concert Bb is no longer open its fingered 1st valve, meaning that the instrument could be out of tune on all the notes not fingered 1st valve, so sometimes now you will hear wind bands tune to F and the woodwinds to A because it allows the Horns to more accurately tune themselves. I'm sure this is more than you ever wanted, but it's most of the story so maybe someone will find it useful....don't be affraid to fire me any question on all things horn i also know i fair amount about all the other brass instruments as well.

It really shouldn't matter which pitch any instrument is given to tune from...

The only thing you need to tune with is a pair of ears...

It does matter, though, doesn't it? On the violin, for example, notes are slightly different depending on what key you're playing in. So you definitely want to tune to an open string. Also, it is so hard to get your finger in exactly the right position... you could be a half millimeter off, and it affects the sound.

I've also wondered how our winds keep tuning to the orchestra A, I admit.

Sorry to keep replying to old threads, but I'm curious.

I'm also not yet satisfied. There must be an ideal method of tuning per instrument... and it differs per instrument.

As I understand it:

Strings tune to A because they all have an A string, and the rest of the strings can be tuned in perfect fifths to each other. They should never tune to anything other than an open string because there is the possibility of putting their finger in the wrong place.

Woodwinds usually tune to A, but I've also seen Bb clarinets, flutes, and tenor saxophones tune to Bb. The explanation I've heard from band directors is that it's "the most free-blowing note on the instrument," whatever that means.

Most brass usually tune to Bb, although F is also acceptable. This is because most brass instruments are constructed so that with no valves pressed, the Bb harmonic series is prevalent. Bb then is the best note to tune to, with F being a close second. Trombones shouldn't be asked to tune to anything other than Bb and F because the slide can produce the same inaccuracies as for string instruments. I hate when my orchestra conductor has us tune to "an A for everyone" because none of us trombones are good enough to accurately tune to an A.

The anomaly is the french horn. I usually only see them tune to A, but sometimes they tune to Bb, though it's usually because it's a brass piece and only one tuning note is given. I've been confused about french horns for a long time because apparantly it's actually two horns in one. I don't know enough about them to recommend anything with authority.

I'm also not yet satisfied. There must be an ideal method of tuning per instrument... and it differs per instrument.

The oboe is the most difficult instrument to alter the tuning of. Its intonation is compromised anyway as anyone here who plays oboe will know. However, all woodwind instruments suffer compromised tuning even the horn and other valved brass. Consider pressing any valve - the overall length of the tube will be increased so many percent. Press another valve and the length increases by a different percent. Press both and the total increase isn't in the correct proportion any more.

So, all instruments need as Robinjessome says, a good pair of ears so you can intone correctly. But like I say, the oboe sounds the A because other instruments have to tune to it. How an oboist knows they are sounding A=440, one can only wonder. Other than that...it's pure tradition - I dare say the oboe was more of a tuning problem in the pre-conservatoire* system days.

*The first oboe mechanising system to be introduced back around 1900.

montpellier just explained why it's always the oboe. That makes sense now. And I can tell you how all the oboists I've ever known play an A: a tuner on the stand. :P

As I understand it:

Strings tune to A because they all have an A string, and the rest of the strings can be tuned in perfect fifths to each other. They should never tune to anything other than an open string because there is the possibility of putting their finger in the wrong place.

Woodwinds usually tune to A, but I've also seen Bb clarinets, flutes, and tenor saxophones tune to Bb. The explanation I've heard from band directors is that it's "the most free-blowing note on the instrument," whatever that means.

Most brass usually tune to Bb, although F is also acceptable. This is because most brass instruments are constructed so that with no valves pressed, the Bb harmonic series is prevalent. Bb then is the best note to tune to, with F being a close second. Trombones shouldn't be asked to tune to anything other than Bb and F because the slide can produce the same inaccuracies as for string instruments. I hate when my orchestra conductor has us tune to "an A for everyone" because none of us trombones are good enough to accurately tune to an A.

The anomaly is the french horn. I usually only see them tune to A, but sometimes they tune to Bb, though it's usually because it's a brass piece and only one tuning note is given. I've been confused about french horns for a long time because apparantly it's actually two horns in one. I don't know enough about them to recommend anything with authority.

I have always seen a band tune to Bb, unless they are performing with an orchestra. Then they do A. That's what I think is weird, that Bb is, as far as I know, the note where you have no fingers down and whatnot.

I forgot that valves are a bit more like piano keys, though, that might explain it.

It really shouldn't matter which pitch any instrument is given to tune from...

The only thing you need to tune with is a pair of ears...

AGREED :D