Beethoven

Hello guys. I just bought all the symphonies of beethoven. There's also his spring sonata and egmont bundled inside them. So before I start listening? I would like to have some tips on how to listen to beethoven.. Like what should I be aware of and such.

And since his movements in his symphony are rather long, how do I keep my concentration and prevent it from fading away?

Thanks for the help. :thumbsup:

Welcome to the dark side, Nigel.

Anyway, I've listened to most works by Beethoven - you'd better hear me out. I just need to know something first - are you familiar with sonata form? (this is essential when it comes to the symphonies)

I think so.. Exposition - Development - Recap?

That's roughly it. But can you break it down even more? Like, what does the exposition consist of?

Hmm.. Exposition consists of 2 themes. Then a change of key.. I don't know about the development section, except I know that it can be in various keys... Then the recapitulation contains the theme 1 again in a different key, then ends on the original key the sonata starts..

Ah right then there's an optional coda at the end.

Ok, that's more than enough. You seem to have it down alright, but I'll just provide a general overview of the form here for your convenience. (and because I feel like typing a lot)

Let's say we have a ''Symphony in C major''. (Note that this symphony contains an introduction. This is optional. Beethoven's first, second, fourth and seventh all have long, pompous introductions.) We're going to look at the first movement, which is in sonata form.

Outline of form -

1. Introduction

2. Exposition (Subject I - Modulating Bridge - Subject II - Cadence material/codetta) - Development - Recapitulation

3. Recapitulation (Subject I - Bridge - Subject II - Cadence material/codetta)

4. Coda

The introduction introduces and psychologically adds weight to the movement. It's usually slower than the exposition itself and may contain material that will be further developed in the exposition. (often, this material is *very* subtly borrowed - only your inner ear will recognise it when it appears in the exposition)

The piece starts with an exposition. The exposition is initiated by a ''Subject I''. This subject is in the home key (in this case, C major) of the piece. After this subject has been played out, you will hear a transition - this is the modulating bridge. You'll recognise it in that it doesen't have a thematic profile - it just serves as a bridge to modulate from the first subject to the second subject) The bridge modulates to the dominant key, which in this case is G major, for the second subject.

When the second subject has been played out, you'll hear some cadence material (also called a codetta) which concludes the exposition and initiates either a repeat of the exposition or the start of the development.

The development is often the most interesting section of a piece in the sonata mold. It's often harmonically unstable, and the themes can be broken down, integrated into each other to form a new theme, (!) etc. This is where a classical composer has the most artistic freedom. There's really no limit to the number of parts in a development section - some of Beety's developments are absolutely gigantic.

The last part of the development often stresses the tonic key of the piece to prepare for the Recapitulation. The recapitulation is pretty much an altered replay of the exposition, except in this case the modulating bridge is not a modulating bridge. The bridge doesen't go to g major anymore! It just stays in C. This means that, for the recap, the second subject is also in C major! Intriguing. The codetta concludes/cadence material concludes the recap as we move on to the Coda.

The coda is there to end the movement and bang the home key, just there, home. It's similar to the development section in many ways - the only really important thing here is to bang home the home key and create a convincing ending to the movement.

Note:

- Remember that in Beethoven, codas are more expansive - particularly in the later symphonies. They've often been called second development sections, and rightly so.

- ALL of Beethoven's first movements in his symphonies are in this form. Sometimes the last movements will take on this form as well.

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Can you process this? Is anything unclear? It'll most likely be much more clear once you start listening to the symphonies, but it'd be nice if you roughly grasped it in advance.

Do you want me to guide you through each of the symphonies? I could provide a general outline of each movement if you want me to. I could point out when the first theme comes in to play, the second theme, what devices Beethoven uses in his development.. etc..

Oh, and what recording did you buy? Who's you conductor? Please don't say it's Karajan... That guy butchers the poor symphonies.

Can you process this? Is anything unclear? It'll most likely be much more clear once you start listening to the symphonies, but it'd be nice if you roughly grasped it in advance.

Do you want me to guide you through each of the symphonies? I could provide a general outline of each movement if you want me to. I could point out when the first theme comes in to play, the second theme, what devices Beethoven uses in his development.. etc..

Oh, and what recording did you buy? Who's you conductor? Please don't say it's Karajan... That guy butchers the poor symphonies.

These recordings are bought from japan.. And the conductors a japanese I think. I'll listen to the first symphony later today. (Maybe just the first movement.) Then if I have any questions, I'll post it here, so it can be viewed by all forum members and also act as good reference. :thumbsup:

Yes, yes, sounds good! And I agree, you should start try to grasp the first movement first.

It's simple, really, and the form can be comfortable to lean on when composing.

Yes, yes, sounds good! And I agree, you should start try to grasp the first movement first.

It's simple, really, and the form can be comfortable to lean on when composing.

I think Toscanini's complete set totally pwns. What would you say?

I actually don't know who conducted my favorite set. I downloaded it from the internet a while ago and the ID3 tags were nonexsistant..

I think Toscanini's complete set totally pwns. What would you say?

Don't actually know this set. :blush: How does he interpret the music? I might check it out but if it's anything like Karajan..

I actually don't know who conducted my favorite set. I downloaded it from the internet a while ago and the ID3 tags were nonexsistant..

Don't actually know this set. :blush: How does he interpret the music? I might check it out but if it's anything like Karajan..

Not at all! Toscanini is considered the greatest of all conductors. On Amazon, you can get the 9 symphonies by him, and it costs less than 18 dollars. The sound quality is old, but the conducting is top-notch! You should seriously check it out.

Karajan himself said Beethoven had to be conducted politely. Toscanini didn't think so.

Can you process this? Is anything unclear? It'll most likely be much more clear once you start listening to the symphonies, but it'd be nice if you roughly grasped it in advance.

Ok I've listen to it Anders. Is the introduction the slow theme at the beginning? Then theme A should be the fast joyful theme? Theme B after that.. But when does it start? At the entrance of the piccolo( or is it a flute?)? Then it goes into development. Then I hear the first theme once again, then theme B, then I'm lost... :P

Any pointers? Or is my listening all wrong?

Gah. How did I miss this? I have to go now, but i'll get back to you on this in a day or so.. In the meantime anyone else that knows the symphony is free to answer of course

Oooh, nice thread, I just got the complete set too, so I'll follow along.

Oh, and thanks for the explanation of sonata form, I was a bit hazy in some areas.:(

Well Nigel, I tell ya, everyone in the audience gets tired after 20 minutes, thats a fact. But, you CAN maybe focus on the main themes to keep you awake I guess? For me, when the big cymbal bangs comes in, I'm totally awake. I Hope that helped, if not, I tried my best. :thumbsup:

Cheers

An informed listener doesen't get tired after 20 minutes - he is entranced by the music and doesen't respond to worldly things like ''tiredness''.. Kind of. :thumbsup: But thanks to James for the excellent example of an attitude you should try, at all costs, to avoid.

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Anyway, Nigel (and others), as far as I can remember the first symphony is laid out in this fashion:

Introduction - Slow, pompous material in the style of a french overture

Exposition THEME 1 - energetic, extremely simple triadic theme

Exposition Modulating Bridge - nonthematic bridge which goes to g major for theme 2

Exposition THEME 2 - delightfull, also extremely simple theme

Exposition CADENCEMATERIAL - material that serves to transition back to theme 1 for an exposition repeat

here the entirety of exposition is repeated, the difference being that the cadence material doesen't transition into an exposition repeat, but a development.. The development is completely classical, filled with sequences of the main theme.

after the development is over you'll hear the exposition again, but it's slightly altered. You'll know the development is over when the main theme 1 comes back in played by the entiiire orchestra.. After that we hear the bridge again which doesen't go to g major, causing theme 2 to also be in c major! :o

after the exposition has been played out you'll hear a coda of moderate length that concludes the movement

Clear enough? I might edit in more details once I have the recordings available to me..

PS: The last movement is also in sonata form. Do you want to go through that one as well? And can you grasp the middle movements? The minuet of this symphony is extremely interesting for it's period...

Hmm.. The exposition is repeated. I think I can roughly get it now.. I know where the development is.. But I can't tell FOR SURE which one is theme A, when it starts.. I just know it's the exposition. And I don't know if I identified the bridges right though..

I know! :thumbsup: *searches for midi* *finds midi* Listen to the attached midi and follow along with this. Do the same thing with the recording when you've got all of this down.

Exposition

1. 00:00 - Introduction

2. 01:19 - Theme 1

3. 01:45 - Modulating bridge

4. 02:12 - Theme 2

5. 02:59 - Cadence Material

6. 03:28 - 2. to 5. repeated

Development

7. 05:37 - Development

Recapitulation (altered repeat of exposition)

8. 07:08 Theme 1

9. 07:21 - non-modulating bridge

10. 07:45 Theme 2 (now in C major)

11: 08:58 - Coda

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So, Beethoven's 1st, first movement, goes like this:

Intro - Theme 1 - bridge - Theme 2 - cadence material - development - Theme 1 - bridge - Theme 2 - Coda

How do ya like me now? :o When we've gone through 5-6 of the symphonies you'll be able to notice the form like this for yourself on a 1st-2nd listen.

I personally prefer Hogwood's recording to Karajan's, but that's because of the voices used in the 9th symphony... and I like period instruments (saying that probably just started the age-old argument up again)

If I were you I'd listen to Beethoven 1st, 2nd and 4th symphonies last as they are by and large the *gulp* worst. I mean, they're still not bad, they're just not "BEethoven". One's you have to listen (in order ofmy favourite)

Beethoven 9

Beethoven 6

Beethoven 3

Beethoven 5

Beethoven 8

Beethoven 7

Beethoven 1

Beethoven 2

Beethoven 4

Nine is by far the deepest, number six is simply beautiful, number 3 is incredible, number 5 is, well, number 5 and the rest are playful.

There's not a ''worst'' Beethoven symphony, you're just proclaiming an oppinion. They are all different, they don't improve - They change as Beethoven experiences various things in life. Sure, some might be grander but there's not a ''bad'' Beethoven symphony. (the only thing that's really bad is the last movement to the ninth... but that's just my oppinion)

EDIT: From a second reading we seem to kind of be in agreement... must stop skimming.. appologies..

If you want to follow along with beethoven's development you should definitely go the 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 way. Just be aware there's a large gap between 8 and 9 - Beethoven wrote ''eight symphonies, and then another one''.

6. 03:28 - 1. to 5. repeated

You mean from 2. right? The intro isn't repeated.

Other than that, I got pretty much of this movement down.. So which movement of which symphony should I listen next?

Yeah, sorry. Changed it.

Well, is there anything in particular that interests you? If you'd like something really cool you could try the first movement of the fourth.

I recommend you give a quick listen to the 2nd and 3rd movements of this symphony (the 1st) though, and then check out the fourth movement. It's hillarious. It always makes me laugh.

....

(the only thing that's really bad is the last movement to the ninth... but that's just my oppinion)

You are not alone, I usually turn it off before that starts. Nice movement by itself if he cut out all that repetition stuff on the first couple of pages.

If you want to follow along with beethoven's development you should definitely go the 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 way. Just be aware there's a large gap between 8 and 9 - Beethoven wrote ''eight symphonies, and then another one''.

Interesting. I often look at his quartets as early, middle, late and Op. 135 which is a different Beethoven altogether.

I sometimes think that members here who ask "how do you write for strings?" or "where can I learn orchestration" could get decent lessons from Beethoven, studying his scores.

Well, is there anything in particular that interests you? If you'd like something really cool you could try the first movement of the fourth.

I think the thing about the first few symphonies (barring the 3rd) was not that Beethoven was boring; he was just moddeling his symphonies after what was expected. It was the 3rd and 5th that really revolutionized the form of the symphony, and the ones following that are Beethoven continuing to expand into this new form of the symphony.

So, it's not that Beethoven's first symphonies are bad; it is that they are based upon the classical symphony. They are still beethoven, they are simply the products of his first period(s).