Oriental Music

So I got comissioned to wright the score for an epic japanese type movie..........but I have no idea how oriental music is supposed to sound. I understand pentatonic scales which are used a lot. I guess I really just need to know what instraments are typically used and any other advice you can think of and I'll go with that. Thanks in advance.

Congrats on the commission! :laugh:

For a Japanese-style movie score, I'd imagine you'll end up needing a good percussion section; probably some strong rhythmic background cues making extensive use of Taiko drums.

For the more peaceful cues, you should use shakuhachi, shamisen, koto. Those three will provide you with all you need to get that traditional Japanese sound.

I would personally recommend keeping the ensemble fairly small for the most part, swelling to an orchestra only for the most dramatic cues in the film. The battle/action sequences should most likely not stray into much melodic territory; keep the emphasis on the rhythm.

These are just general ideas; I'd need to be more familiar with the story to be able to give you more useful advice. Generally speaking though, what I've mentioned above is the place to start and then you can use your own creativity and judgement to add your own personal touch and ensure that it fits with the film.

Good luck!

Well what i do when i want to come up ideas is sit at the piano and only play the black notes! Hours of fun!

-r

Thanks Marius. Thats actually all I needed to know (and some I already did know :toothygrin:)

And Ricky, I have done that A LOT! haha

No worries :toothygrin:

I've actually been researching this a lot for a composition I'm writing in my jazz piano class. My assignment is to write a jazz piece using techniques and scales of a different culture's folk music. Anyway, there are two main pentatonic scales used in oriental music, The In and Yo scales. The Yo scale is the common "all black key" variety, while the In scale uses semitones on the 1st and 4th intervals. (D-e flat-g-a-b flat). As a side note, you can get a pretty cool koto effect on the piano if you glissando down the scale really quickly. If you're looking to be traditional, their music usually stays away from large interval jumps, and tries to maintain an ethereal placidity to it.

Anyway, good luck and I this helped a bit.

I might offer some guidelines in writing for at least the melodic instruments.

* You don't hear much major-mode stuff going on in traditional Japanese melodies. Mostly natural minor or phrygian (think natural minor with a minor second).

* The melodies don't have very complex rhythms - a melody of 8th notes with a few 16th notes thrown in would "sound" very Japanese with the right instruments.

* There doesn't seem to be a lot of large interval leaps, and the range of the melody isn't too much more than an octave, maybe an octave and a half - this is REALLY general. Of course, if you're doing an orchestral variation of the "traditional" theme you can go a little more wild here.

* I don't know how to really express this next part, but the "recognizability" factor of the melody is not the main factor. Generally, it's not something that you'd "hum" or something like that - not like 1812 Overture or 5th Symphony. Keep in mind that traditions that surround a lot of Japanese culture deal with harmony (with the surroundings) and lots of time the melody is just made to have a sense of calmness and "ambience" to the air around. (Not ambience in the way 21st century thinks of it - like Dance-Techno ambience - reverbs on the snare, stuff like that.) Think like elevator music. But cool melodies. Cool instruments. And no elevator. Maybe "atmosphere" is a better term.

* More along these lines, no "call and response" type melodies. You know, like "Michael, Row the Boat Ashore" where the first phrase ends on the 5th and then the second phrase "resolves" the whole entire melody with the root. Not a whole lot of that going on.

I hope this helps. I love everything Japanese and used to live near a big Japanese cultural center in South Florida.

Take care for now,

- A

I just re-read your original post.

If you're doing pentatonic, DON'T do Major pentatonic or it will sound like folk music from the Civil War.

And be really careful if you're using minor pentatonic not to make it sound too Native American. If you add some minor seconds and minor sixths this should mask it pretty well.

Just some guidelines - nothing too strict. Only one strict rule - "If it sounds good, it IS good."

Take care,

- A

wow, thanks so much for the great responses so far. keep em coming.....if there are anymore :)

Oh, and angelic: Your post was very informative, but you descibed everything in a very elementary way :) haha, like the fifth paragraph.....wouldnt it just be easier to say "stay away from polyphony"? I AM a music major, haha. I'm just messing with you man, thanks again.

I'm not sure if its as much stay away from polyphony, as a more open sound.

One thing that would help would be to go to soundclick, and search for japanese/oriental music.

Also, freeplaymusic.com has some interesting oriental songs. And does a good job with ambience.

Are you limited to 'real' instruments, or can you use computer synths. Synthesized ambience like white noise, or ocean sounds/wind/etc. are an option.

If I may be so bold as to reply, I've been working on quite a bit of oriental soundtrack scores of recent, though they have been focusing more on the middle-east than far east, however there have been a few tracks i've done situated around the 'traditional japanese' sound. For those pieces I mainly used, which have been mentioned before above:

Percussion:

Oh come on, Jade Empire as a reference? That score is filled with so many misleading cliches that it almost hurts my ears to listen to. But then again, the game followed in similar distaste, so I guess it works out in the end.

I personally dislike the idea of imitating "ethnic" music, but I guess it can't be helped in the film music industry. Such music really has little integrity in my eyes, instead filled with flashy and shameless exoticism. But saying more will probably end up making a hypocrite out of me, so I'll shut up now ;).

cool, i love asian music(being chinese myself). i've only begun to compose so i dunno much. but i think use a lot of asian instruments. all the ones listed above are really good. however, i have somthing against using the erhu. yes, even though it creates an undeniable asian sound, you shouldn't use it in a japanese film because everyone knows erhu is chinese not japanese. Taiko drums for battle scenes are good. Pentitonic scale is a good idea. however, someone mentioned it might sound too much like folk. the difference is the use of the rythm, esp. 16th notes. John Williams score to Memoirs of a Geisha was a successful score, give it a listen for ideas. oh and don't forget to listen to scores from a local composer. Try Joe Hisaishi's score to Spirited Away.;)

.........Generally, it's not something that you'd "hum" or something like that - not like 1812 Overture or 5th Symphony.

- A

I suppose it's ok humming the 1812 Overture but I can never get the cannons right...

I would like to resurrect this thread if I may. I would like to get more advice on composing oriental music, especially Chinese music. Scales, common chord progressions, genres, resources, anything you might be able to point me in the right direction on.

Thanks,

Darren

My thread LIVES!!!! lol, hey Mag, welcome to the forums! I'm kinda in a hurry right now, but I'll say this: keep it simple. Oriental music isnt very deep. Try writing a flute solo in any pentatonic key (google it if youre not sure) with a lot of grace notes and hemiolas. Then put a very chordal harp (koto would be more authentic, but for midi playback purposes a harp will suffice) with lots of arpeggiation. For more action-esque music use some tyko drums, possibly with a shrill flute over the top in parts. Its worked for me so far! Good luck!

Thanks for the response, pianoman216. I think I have a wiki page saved in my favorites that details the pentatonic and its modes. Of course, I am already familiar with the pentatonic but I have not yet really composed any "oriental" music (nothing over about 30 seconds anyway).

I am using Quantum Leap Colossus and I am about to purchase either Ethno World 4 or RA so I will have access to the sounds of several instruments.

Once again, any help at all is appreciated very much.

Thanks,

Darren

Sometimes keeping the instrumentation accurate, but the actual compositions simple is key to a good score in unfamiliar territory. The Discovery Sounds “real world” libraries also have some authentic clips that are good to borrow ideas from in terms of your instrumentation, and the register of each instrument.

You are already aware of the harmonic characteristics, but when you listen to your reference music take special note to the cadences that pop up.. I find that there are normally two or three types of cadences that are more commonly used per style of music.

if you find the right cadences and types of chord structures, the key notes that make up their scales, the instrumentation and register of each instrument and you take in account the variety of moods that are needed and the time the film is set in, it will be very hard not to have something to be proud of.

But it really depends on the projects brief. I did an Egyptian piece called “dream scape” that had to be a modern piece with a hint of the traditional sound, so instead of authentic instrumentation I used modern instruments like the acoustic guitar, bass, and kit with a few orchestral cymbals and gongs.. but purely because of the scales I used it sounded rather Egyptian/middle eastern. You can hear it here:MySpace.com - The Music of Dylan Ellis - Johannesburg - Other / Visual / Experimental - www.myspace.com/dylanellismusic

My track is in a song structure that was key a specific scene, this peice isnt a traditional score.

Hope that helps?

for instance the middle-east instruments (i'm particular to the Duduk (armenian flute heard on Gladiator and for some reason most Egyptian film scores)) can fit well in my experience with far-east instruments..

The Duduk is a wonderful sounding instrument, and realatively in expensive and easy to get a few notes out of.. it can be quite haunting on its own with a nice impulse responce reverb!

Great instrument to have in your collection.

watch sum japanese films like last samurai but thats not really japanese. OO spirited away is really good

watch sum japanese films like last samurai but thats not really japanese. OO spirited away is really good

Oh my gosh! The last samauri soundtrack is AMAZING! Hanz Zimmer is the freaking shiz!

I actually watched that movie before starting in on the film I wrote for. Its kind of americanized japanese music, but it does give you some good ideas. Just make sure, when watching ANY movie for the purpose of studying its music, to actually STUDY its music. Its very easy to get distracted (especially by a movie as good as the last samauri) and slip into actual watching the movie. Grab a piece of paper and a pen and take notes. This will tend to keep your mind focused on what you should be doing.

Get a book on japanese music, study their culture and music tradition, instruments, harmony, and maybe then you'll get a glimpse at how japanese music *really* sounds like. And it might not seem interesting to you to do all this, and you just want to write a very superficial japanese score, but think that this is a japanese film, meant to be seen by japanese people, who have grown up in this culture that you didn't bother understanding, and I think they might be offended.

I think music of other cultures than our own (especially diametrically different cultures such as eastern or african) are very difficult to comprehend unless we experience them, and most people sadly ignore this. It's quite pointless selecting a few elements of their music and placing it out of context and in ignorance of its initial value and meaning.

How would you feel if someone from Japan said "Hm.. I'll write a piece in the Western Classical style. Ok, they use triads. I'll use only one triad, and I'll have a violin and a piano. Great." and then he calls that piece a representative piece of western classical music? This is most probably not going to happen, but you get my point :P

Japanese music is gorgeous, though :)

Hi there ;) got a few 'oriental' music books at home. and mainly I would tell you to...

1.always write your own music because you cannot acheive the art of another culture in few years

2.if you need to do a project about something specific as jujimufu said... read a lot, hear original music related to the topic.

Without these, as some said it will be superficial and even though most people dont care about it (I probably wouldn't much) but it might even be insulting to the people from that culture that you just the surface of their art. ;-)

But as I said... first thing... do what you are not what others would do and there lies the art thing accoding to my opinion.

But more than all... have fun !! :D

Go small. Small sounds. Sparse. Get your hands on a shamisen. small wood flutes. Simple is best. Think of their food, ..simple. Language...simple (writing is a scallop but that is another story). They say and do so much with so little. YOu can do the same ..grasshopper... heheheh had to say it.

ONe other comment. What Dunael said struck a chord with me about insulting another culture. There is a Japanese singer (Forgot her name) that is striving to sound as American as possible. What she (or her team of top scientist) does is take the "icing" from American rock tunes and build a song out of that, cleches and more. What she ends up with is this tune that really takes off in Jap land, but makes me want to kick a puppy when I hear it. Her tunes have no substance just glitter and sparkle. So, don't make a Japanese tune of just "hooks" is what I'm trying to say.

Go small. Small sounds. Sparse. Get your hands on a shamisen. small wood flutes. Simple is best. Think of their food, ..simple. Language...simple (writing is a scallop but that is another story). They say and do so much with so little. YOu can do the same ..grasshopper... heheheh had to say it.

ONe other comment. What Dunael said struck a chord with me about insulting another culture. There is a Japanese singer (Forgot her name) that is striving to sound as American as possible. What she (or her team of top scientist) does is take the "icing" from American rock tunes and build a song out of that, cleches and more. What she ends up with is this tune that really takes off in Jap land, but makes me want to kick a puppy when I hear it. Her tunes have no substance just glitter and sparkle. So, don't make a Japanese tune of just "hooks" is what I'm trying to say.

Wow! I never expected this thread to be ressurected! I started it like 3-4 years ago. In any case, though, thanks for the reply! I have noticed that a lot of japanese music has a very ambient feel. Thanks for the comments and suggestions! :)