Lesson with Mark

Mark will be wroking on a Concerto for Tenor Recorder and strings. A important goal of his for this piece is for this piece to exhibit the "flavor" or "spirit" of the Baroque and not an authentically composed baroque piece.

In Mark's own words his main plan is as follows:

Allegro (A minor) - Ritornello form, similar to the fast movements in Vivaldi's Cello Concerti.

Bourree (C major) - I know it's not traditionally part of a concerto but I really like them, and have written one for a solo instrument which could be harmonised with strings to give a similar effect to the second movements in Vivaldi's Concerti.

Fuga (A minor) - Again, I know it's not particularly common to find a fugue as a complete movement of a concerto, but this is something I'd really like to try. If it doesn't work, I can always just do another Ritornello type movement.

Mark,

After listening and looking at what you have so far, I have some questions to ask that I hope will get you thinking even more.

1) The opening solo is in the natural minor. Do you intent to vary between different forms of the minor scale for the solo passages?

2) Do you plan to add a keyboard instrument of any kind or a lute to further suggest ties to the Baroque philosophy?

3) As far as the form of your piece is concerned, do you plan to observe the traditional pattern of solo-ritornello-solo-ritornello, etc.? Or do you plan on using a more Rondo type approch? Or perhaps something different?

4) In regards to your voice leading, how do you feel about your direct ocatves in the 5th measuer that occur between the violins and violas from beat 3 to beat 4? Also from beat 4 of the 5th measure to beat 1 of the 6th measure between the viola and cello.

And again in measure 6 on the beat 2 between the violins and viols from F to D. Even though you have a passing note or two ti doesn't hide the the sound of direct octaves from the ear. The same issues occur are there of course when the pattern repeats in measures 7 and 8 and when the ritornello appears in C Major.

These are my first batch of questions and points of discussion.

1) I planned to keep it natural most of the time and employing harmonic on cadences.

2) I originally had an organ playing continuo but decided not to have an organ/harpsi./lute due to the rarety of these instruments which would make it a lot more difficult to have it performed.

3) I plan to use standard ritornello form.

4) I've looked around, and can't see any parallel octaves in the places you mentioned, could you perhaps point them out please? Or does direct octaves mean something different?

Thanks, Mark

When I said direct ocatves I meant direct unisons. Basically, you are approaching a unison, octave or perfect 5th in one or more voices by using the same direction of motion.

1) Direct unison #1 occurs in measure 5 from beat 4 to the 3rd beat between the violins and the viola. On the third beat the viola is on A and leaps up to the note D. At the same time on beat 3 the violins are on the note C and move up stepwise to the same note D. This is moving to a unison by "direct" or similar motion and is usually avoided.

2) Again in the 4th measure at the end of the 4th beat the viola moves up stepwise from C to D while at the same time the cello leaps from the half note F up to D. This is the case where you have approached an octave between two voices by "similar" or "direct" motion. Again, this should be avoided.

I have pointed out the problems in the Finale Attachment.

Because the ritornello repeats the problems with direct unisions and octaves also repeat. There are a couple more for me to point out but first let me know if you see and understand what I am talking about with your voice leading before I continue. :ninja:

I see what you mean now, I wasn't aware that was an error, but I certainly understand what you're talking about.

Should these be corrected? Or are you just making me aware of a Baroque practice? If the former, how best do you suggest I go about correcting them?

Thanks, Mark

Many times the severe rules of strict counterpoint are at times ignored in personal composition. But, the rules involving voice leading of octaves, unisions and perfect 5ths are usually respected unless certain types of motion that go agaist these rules are part of the fabric of your piece. I can only suggest that you change the "problems" that I pointed out since you are attempting a Baroque-like piece.

But, in the end it will be up to you and if the changes still give you the desired result as far as what the piece sounds like.

:o

I've had a good play about with the voices, changing notes here and there to try and get rid of the direct octaves, but unfortunetely all I managed to do was to kill the canonic feeling between the two upper voices.

I've been working on some ideas for the first solo, I'll try and get them notated some time tonight and post them.

Mark :mellow:

Before you start with additional ideas for the solo I would like for you to do one thing first. I would like for you to look at the material that is the opening solo for the Tenor Recorder and extract motivic ideas from the opening solo.

Ok, will do :w00t:

Right, the one that sticks out most is the A E D E figure as this is what I based the original canon on, even that's repeated with a permution in that first solo.

Another one that comes to mind is m.1 beat 3 through to m.2 beat 2.

And another the final melodic cadence of C D B G A in m.4

There are possibly a few more but I'm not too great at this part of it, choosing which bits to develop.

Mark :D

I want for you to actually write out the motivic ideas with Finale and post them so that I can see them and we can discuss your thoughts. When you write out the motifs, above the measure label them (ex. Motif 1/Motif a, Motif 2/Motif b).

done. :thumbsup:

I'll be away this weekend, family gathering :( But I'll take some manuscript paper and work on fugues.

I have taken a look at your labeled motifs. Keep in mind that I would like for you to be economical with your motvic and thematic material. I want the economy of your motifs and themes to extend into creating material for the string orchestra to accompany and play against the Recorder solo. I want you to think about retrogrades and inversions of your motifs and themes. In addition, don't be tempted to always state your themes in completion at all times.

I played around with the counterpoint a bit of the ritornello material in the string orchestra. My aim was to get rid of some of the direct unisons and octaves. The canonic imitation is still preserved. You may decided to make changes or what have you. It serves as an example. In fact you may choose to keep it if you wish. I've attached my reworking of your ritornello in its A minor entrance.

Also, you mentioned that you want to create a piece that is Baroque inspired rather than an authentic Baroque piece. Therefore, instead of restating the ritornello in the key of the relative major (C Major) think about a different key that has less of a traditional relationship to A minor.

:horrified:

I've had a look at the viola line, and made a few small changes, having looked at your example, which I think may have killed the majority of the direct octaves.

I've tried it in B minor, which isn't too far away from A minor (2 #s) but still isn't one of the directly related ones, and it'll certainly make the harmony in the solo more interesting if I'm modulating that far.

Ok Mark,

1)I've take a look at what you've done. There are still two issues that I have. One is that the problem with a direct unison and the other is an implied parallel unison. I know I must sound as if I'm being picky about this, but you always want the best counterpoint possible for your piece. Seeing that this piece is to be modeled after the Baroque style I'm going to be picky about it. If "breaking" or ignoring certain voice leading or counterpoint rules were part of the unique design of your piece then I'd have no problem. But, I know that is not the approach you are taking and so I want to make sure certain issues are corrected so that they don't cause further problems in the piece.

2) I do like the ritornello appearing in B Major instead of the relative Major. Now, the other thing to think about is how do you plan to modulate during the course of the piece? Since this piece is Baroque inspired and not Baroque authentic having a different tonal layout will change how you approach and prepare for modulation to more distant keys. Yes, you can use secondary dominants of the distant keys you want to get to, but don't let your thinking stop there. Of course I will help you along the way when we get to those places in your piece.

3) Have you come up with any additional themese or motivic ideas for your piece?

Here is a version with the last direct unison corrected, I'm leaving the implied parallel octave as I'm quite fond of that bit and couldn't get round it without making it sound weird, and the parallel isn't that obvious, well, to my ears.

I've been thinking about my opening solo, and planning it to 8 or 16 bars, and in four 2 or 4 bar phrases respectively. I'd like the modulation to be fairly sudden so I think I'll leave anything B minor related untill the last phrase, which I'd like to be something like:

||Dm | A | C#m | F#7 || Theme in B minor

I'm working on the first 2 bar phrase (yep, decided on 2) shall try and post in a bit.

Here's what was in the last post (or would've been, had I remember to attach it :thumbsup:) plus a two bar start to the first solo. There arew no issues at all with playability on the recorder as I'm learning everything as I go, and I can play it fine having only played recorder since mid april, so no-one should have any trouble there :cool:

Mark :angry:

Just realised i've forgotten performance directions, will try and notate ASAP.

I've notated all of the first solo. I have a flute playing the recorder part as it sounds much more like a recorder than the recorder voice.

Brief Overview:

First phrase:

Chords:| Am G Am - | F Dm F - | Developed from Motif 1 (1545)

Second Phrase:

Chords:| C - Dm - | Am - Em E | This came from Motif 2 (ascending scale) I know the solo doesn't really fit the harmony, but for some reason it sounds good and as I'm not being authentic here I can take a few liberties can't I? :)

Third Phrase:

The chords in this one are exactly the same as in the first phrase.

It was developed from Motif 1, but in a slightly more sophisticated way than phrase 1, outlining the chords at the same time.

Last Phrase:

This was the one I was worried about. but actually came out my favourite.

The chords are |Dm - A - | C#m - F#7 - | With this phrase I am modulating from Am to Bm, something that Vivaldi certainly wouldn't do in 2 bars! It also comes from Motif 1, being developed in a similar fashoin to phrase 3.

Mark :)

Recorder Concerto.MUS

I've downloaded what you've added so far and I'l taking a look at it. I'll most likely post a reply in a couple of days. :)

I have some ideas:

After this ritornello, next go to E major, then back to finish in A minor.

In the third solo have the violin one enter as a solo instrument aswell and play in free counterpoint and 'duel' with the recorder.

Any thoughts?

I do have thoughts :D

Before we go on I'm going to give give you the "good the bad and the ugly" of what I saw in your piece. :)

THE ORCHESTRA:

1) After the opening Ritornello the movement in the string orchestra becomes very stale. I can understand that you may not want a busy sounding orchestra at that moment to take away form the solo but I think it would be best to use longer values as you have done only if you are trying to provide a texture/background to enhance the solo experience. Also, there are ways of keeping the orchestra from overshadowing the solo without becoming stale. The solo feels to be moving forward where the orchestra doesn't have that feeling, hence the word stale. Remember I mentioned that I wanted you to be economical with your themes and motifs in creating material for the orchestra as well. You could then think about creating moments of duest, trios, imitation, etc. with orchestra and solo, within the orchestra itself. You do introduce a little imitation in meausre 14 and 15 which is a nice touch. I'll say more on that in another paragraph.

HARMONY AND VOICE LEADING:

2) The music comes across as harmonically awkward and contributes to the problem of the harmonic progression not feeling forward moving. Although you have chosen longer values for the orchestra elegant voice leading can make a difference. Try to give each voice a personl sense of direction and interaction with the music even if you use longer note values.

In fact in measure 9 on the 4th beat you have a direct octave between the recorder and cello into measure 10.

I believe measure 14 is where you mentioned that you knew the solo didn't fit the harmony but you liked it anyway. Well, this is one of those awkward moments harmonically I was talking about. The imitiation idea you've introduced bewtween the solo and violins is very nice and I think the imitation is why you may like like that particular as much as you do. I think you should rework the that harmony and voice leading in that section.

I know its early in the piece, but don't be afraid to use non diatonic harmonies. You don't have to go off the deep end, but you have studied harmony and counterpoint and now is the time to put it ALL to good use within reason.

THE PIZZICATO:

3) I LOVE the idea of having the pizzicato in the upper strings and the cello playing arco. It gives an added dimension for texture. However, a note played pizzicato decays quickly and I think you should handle it with care and creativity. There's a lot of fun to be had with the pizzicato in your piece. I think you should think about it.

THE SOLO:

4) I like the solo and I don't really have any issues with it. Again, in reference to harmony and voice leading, don't be afraid of some chromatic non chord tones. They don't have to be plastered everywhere, but I think later on in the peice a few here and there will spark the mind on what it will do to the counterpoint and implied harmonies of your piece.

I do have an example of using your exisiting ideas to create material for the orchestra, but I would like for you to work it out and if you are having trouble I will post my example using your piece.

Good work so far.

I want to hear your thoughts or explanations. :)

THE ORCHESTRA:

1) After the opening Ritornello the movement in the string orchestra becomes very stale. I can understand that you may not want a busy sounding orchestra at that moment to take away form the solo but I think it would be best to use longer values as you have done only if you are trying to provide a texture/background to enhance the solo experience. Also' date=' there are ways of keeping the orchestra from overshadowing the solo without becoming stale. The solo feels to be moving forward where the orchestra doesn't have that feeling, hence the word stale. Remember I mentioned that I wanted you to be economical with your themes and motifs in creating material for the orchestra as well. You could then think about creating moments of duest, trios, imitation, etc. with orchestra and solo, within the orchestra itself. You do introduce a little imitation in meausre 14 and 15 which is a nice touch. I'll say more on that in another paragraph.[/quote']

I understand what you mean here, I shall attempt to do something more creative with the orchestra now, I should have something posted by the time you're next online.

HARMONY AND VOICE LEADING:

2) The music comes across as harmonically awkward and contributes to the problem of the harmonic progression not feeling forward moving. Although you have chosen longer values for the orchestra elegant voice leading can make a difference. Try to give each voice a personl sense of direction and interaction with the music even if you use longer note values.

In fact in measure 9 on the 4th beat you have a direct octave between the recorder and cello into measure 10.

I expect giving each voice a little more to do would help with giving each voice 'a sense of direction'? And I'll fix that direct octave :)

I believe measure 14 is where you mentioned that you knew the solo didn't fit the harmony but you liked it anyway. Well, this is one of those awkward moments harmonically I was talking about. The imitiation idea you've introduced bewtween the solo and violins is very nice and I think the imitation is why you may like like that particular as much as you do. I think you should rework the that harmony and voice leading in that section.

Do you mean m.11? That's the bit with the imitation. I shall rework the harmony in that part, I don't want strange harmony to ruin what is otherwise one of my favourite bits so far.

I know its early in the piece, but don't be afraid to use non diatonic harmonies. You don't have to go off the deep end, but you have studied harmony and counterpoint and now is the time to put it ALL to good use within reason.

I think in the next solo I'll utilise secondary dominants a fair bit, I haven't yet as I want the first solo to have full effect and not have the harmony too 'out there' to distract the listener's attention. I generally steer clear of chromatic chords as I'm not too fond of their sound, but I do like secondary dominants :D

THE PIZZICATO:

3) I LOVE the idea of having the pizzicato in the upper strings and the cello playing arco. It gives an added dimension for texture. However, a note played pizzicato decays quickly and I think you should handle it with care and creativity. There's a lot of fun to be had with the pizzicato in your piece. I think you should think about

I'm using the pizzicato to kind of get a similar effect to the basso continuo concept, but without using a harpsichord. I'll have a look at adding more passing notes et cetera in the string parts to heighten this effect and 'keep things moving' a little more.

As i said, I'll try and post having addressed all of these points sometime in the near future.

Thanks, Mark :D

hmmmmm.

I've corrected the direct octave, but I'm having a little trouble working the motives into the strings, this is much more difficult than I hoped it would be.

Yes, I did mean measure 11 regarding the imitation. Sorry about that.

You may have to take some time and think and really work at it. I'm not suggesting that all parts of the orchestra be busy at all times. I am suggesting that instead of long note values as a 4-part choral support for the solo only, you should use material that you have already come up with in the orchestra to either support the solo, play against the solo, create various types of textures. It is okay to include long note values as well. In everything that you do I want you to pay attention to the lines of counterpoint you are creating. Think about the direction of each part/voice even if you decide to use long note values as a 4-part choral like background in the orchestra.

Take your time with it and let me know if you are really having a tough time and I'll post and example. :thumbsup:

I shall dedicate a good few hours today to experimenting with creating material for the orchestra, if successful I'll post before your day begins :thumbsup:

It would appear that I'm banging my head against a braick wall with this one. However, I have got some work done on the bourree, just the melody atm though. I'll also keep trying to come up a nice theme for the Fuga, as themes always take me ages to come up with.