Convulsing while playing isn't expression

Is this a pet peeve for anyone else? I was watching Joshua Bell (violinist) play the Tzigane, and the amount of contortions the man goes through is amazing (not positively). I can't believe that people mistake this sort of crap for musical expression or for getting into the music. This stupid American "just get into the music, it'll make up for bad technique" thing is starting to kill me. Pretty soon I'll have to renounce my citizenship.

Ah, well, what can we say for this fine country's rapidly deteriorating music appreciation... I say, jump off the mainstream bandwagon and follow what YOU believe is music.... Man, some of this crap I hear on the radio...

...the amount of contortions the man goes through is amazing (not positively). I can't believe that people mistake this sort of crap for musical expression or for getting into the music. This stupid American "just get into the music, it'll make up for bad technique" thing is starting to kill me. ...

I think you might be mistaken. What's wrong with how a person reacts to the music they're performing. I'm not familar with Joshua Bell, but I assume he's a violinist of fairly high calibre? Let him be, and enjoy the music, he probably his.

Don't believe me? Check out Keith Jarrett - possibly the greatest living pianist, he's intense.

Tell me that's not a superior musician 'getting into the music' ...

It's cool to be intense. BUT.

Many movements are not expressions of music or reactions to it but rather crutches that people learn while young and aren't corrected. Things like bobbing up and down, swaying, bending, etc. Joshua Bell is a highly recognized violinist, but I wouldn't say he's fantastic. For one, most violinists who do that suffer from sound problems. When I heard Miriam Fried play the Brahams violin sonata, she was being overpowered by the Fox Valley Symphony, which is not big by any means. She was doubled over half the time and swaying back and forth, which was having a horrible affect on her sound.

Likewise with the Clairmont trio. They do nothing but move around, and as a result, the string players have a really spotty, scratchy sound. When people have to put extra effort into making the music because they have bad technique, it shows. And that's what I have a beef against. It's so acceptable to do this now because American audiences have that misconception that moving means a performer has more passion, when really they have to bend over to play a passage because they're holding their instrument in their hands instead of with their body. Grr.

Many movements are not expressions of music or reactions to it but rather crutches that people learn while young and aren't corrected. ...violinists who do that suffer from sound problems...misconception that moving means a performer has more passion....

Fair enough, if the extraneous motion has an adverse effect on sound or ability then it's no good. In some cases, it likely has no effect; for the listener or the performer.

Personally, I don't care if a player has perfect technique, or if they're holding the instrument differently, or stand/sit/dance/hum/moan while playing. If the sound that's produced is distinct and original they're better off for it. Keith is often criticised for his gyrations/noises, and I can't say if he's got good or sloppy technique; the music he makes is wildly pure and creative and I'd much rather hear him than some robot performing flawlessly.

...

You should watch Maxim Vengerov's performances. Or Yo-Yo Ma's. Bordering between expressive and ridiculous.

Yo-Yo Ma's are ridiculous to me. I'm actually amazed he can still play with the amount of tension he puts in his body.

Part of my problem is that I'm being educated by a lauded pedogogist who also happens to be the former concertmaster of the Hungarian Philharmonic and the Hungarian national opera. She is very much a subscriber of eliminating any distractions while playing, and with good reason. Many of the performers at top schools like Juliard, Eastman, Manhatten, Indiana State, etc, etc aren't being taught; they're being marketed. Some very talented musicians the oldest part of my generation are now suffering because of this, since their teachers focused more on making a name for them than correcting any playing problems that they've taught themselves. The American and Asian schools of music are actually notorious for this, and we have an extremely high casualty rate of performers who give themselves debilitating injuries because they would swing their body to and fro instead of doing something simple like dropping their shoulder.

Yo-Yo Ma's are ridiculous to me. I'm actually amazed he can still play with the amount of tension he puts in his body.

Part of my problem is that I'm being educated by a lauded pedogogist who also happens to be the former concertmaster of the Hungarian Philharmonic and the Hungarian national opera. She is very much a subscriber of eliminating any distractions while playing, and with good reason. Many of the performers at top schools like Juliard, Eastman, Manhatten, Indiana State, etc, etc aren't being taught; they're being marketed. Some very talented musicians the oldest part of my generation are now suffering because of this, since their teachers focused more on making a name for them than correcting any playing problems that they've taught themselves. The American and Asian schools of music are actually notorious for this, and we have an extremely high casualty rate of performers who give themselves debilitating injuries because they would swing their body to and fro instead of doing something simple like dropping their shoulder.

What the heck is wrong with moving when you play? You act like it's going to kill someone or something, just let the people enjoy it and move all they want. What I find funny is that many many rock musicians move around far more than most classical musicians. And yet you've failed to mention any of them

bias?

...many many rock musicians move around far more than most classical musicians.

Yeah, but they look WAY cool... :)

Yeah, but they look WAY cool... :)

And the same can't be said for Yo-Yo Ma! :)

Yo-Yo-Ma is ridiculous!

I was taugh piano from the Russian school with a great teacher who was all for expressing yourslef but always try and stay in position... I mean you have a "huge" keyboard in front of you. IF you start moving... gently caress it!

Extreme moving is rubbish!

But then again the two distinct examples have cause some rethinking to me:

1. Horowitz: the guy would not move a mussle. Restful he would have the most extreme fff or ppp! no matter what, old or young!

2 Glen Gould: Moving, singing, dancing, standing, whatever he could do to express himself! But he did make music as well! and he was a virtuoso indeed!

I am of the impression that one needs not move exessively to express his music! But in the end, whatever works for eveyrone! As long as it doesn't get in the way of sound, and it doesn't seem ridiculous and pretentious!

Yo-Yo-Ma is ridiculous!

Yes, absolutely, but when you don't watch his face...what a cellist! :)

The problem with these sorts of threads is that it is easy to fall into the insider trap; the common conception is that so and so is great, but I know better because I know what I am talking about, be impressed by my discernment which distinguishes me from a musical lemming.

The thing to remember is that Joshua Bell and Yo Yo Ma are both very very good. Whether they are the best is debatable, of course, but still. They are both highly successful, and for good reason.

I'm not fond of Joshua Bell's body movements myself; I saw him performing the Four Seasons, and he had a predilection for stamping his left foot while seated, and spinning around jerkily while standing, which is a little startling. However, some people really like him. I love listening to his stuff. And he's certainly more experienced and successful than I am.

Also, it depends on the piece. A violinist that I know moves a little much, and it does detract from his sound; he isn't Curtis material, but he might be with less work on presentation and more on sound.

Watching him play Kreisler's Liebesfreud, for example, gave me a new enjoyment of the piece; I've always found it charming, but watching him bend his knees, lean back and raise his eyebrows, undulate his shoulders and in all ways deliberately overact in the cheesiest manner possible elicited an audible laugh at the end of the piece, from me and the rest of the audience - it's a humorous piece, and I can't listen to it anymore without chuckling. Did it detract from the sound? Perhaps a little. I didn't do my usual routine of closing my eyes every once in a while to see if he matches. But that is fine, it accomplished what he wanted to say.

...I know better because I know what I am talking about, be impressed by my discernment which distinguishes me from a musical lemming.

:P

...Joshua Bell and Yo Yo Ma are both very very good...highly successful, and for good reason.

I'm not fond of Joshua Bell's body movements myself..stamping his left foot while seated, and spinning around jerkily while standing...

However, some people really like him. I love listening to his stuff.

Exactly. The sound produced is of high quality, so what's the beef with a few extraneous movements?

...less work on presentation and more on sound.

What if that is how they want to sound? They're obviously doing something right! Perhaps the classical community is more concerned with looking proper than with the music produced? :D

To me, my sound is of utmost importance. It's pretty much all I'm concerned with - technique etc are all secondary to me producing MY sound.

I dunno - we can't all be like Freddie Hubbard....

The way people perform is the way they perform. If it affects their sound, maybe they or other people like it. So long as it's not physically injuring them or anyone else, I don't see the harm is encouraging individualism in their performances...the last thing we need are more mindless

If convulsing while playing isn't expression, what is?

If you were a prodigy on piano, but you didn't move at all, people would find you EXTREMELY boring. At least, I would.

~Kal

Once again, I DO NOT have a problem with moving around.

I have a problem with people that make their motions a crutch and then being told by the general public that I must not be a good performer because I don't move around as much as other performers. I mean, it's getting to the point that even the music community seems to think that people who move around more must be better than people who stand mostly still. I play still because I like to focus on my music and keeping my sound solid. Apparently that makes me a bad violist.

I have a problem with people that make their motions a crutch and then being told by the general public that I must not be a good performer because I don't move around as much ...

Anyone who tells you that is an ignorant fool, and should be promptly ignored. People seem to forget that that focus of everything we do should be the music...the sound.

I often lose myself in the moment, almost always have my eyes closed, dance around a bit...who cares, I certainly don't. If someone is paying more attention to what my legs are doing than the sound eminating from my instrument, then their opinion is worthless...

For me, I think it helps convey expression. No, not jumping around, or moving esscesively, but i've met some good players who move around quite a bit. 'Specially Jazz players. :)

I think it can get ridiculous, but i think you should do whatever makes you MAKE MUSIC the best. I think its similar to playing something very sad, and really thinking sad, really trying to express it. Its the human touch, expression that computers can't mimic, not even the very best of the best. And i think thats becuase its not something writen down, or can be explained. If they want to put their soul into the song, so be it, as long as it doesn't detract from the music, and even if it does, who says that music is meant for the audience. I dont play music to preform it, i play it for me. There's lots of music that's written for the sake of music, not the audience. If i get some joy out of it, i can do it however i want, I'm the one who's playing the music, not the people/person watching.

sorry, thats really long... i'm way too longwinded :D

Yeah I think its kind of silly too.

I may bob my head a little tiny bit... but I'm pretty still. I actualy don't understand why people move around at all. Like... I just don't conprehend it. Of course I don't comprehend emotion or soul in music, so I am a weirdo anyway.

My guitarist loves to dance around like mad when he plays... and his playing heavily suffers. But the kids like it, so whatever.

Actualy they allways get mad at me for not moving. People want me to kick out my leg to the side when I'm playing keyboard and stuff. I've seen some pretty silly movements at keyboard before. Well they are rock musicans, and synth players and they aren't from the 70s, so we allready know they are pretty crappy... But they hold one note down and then just shake their head around as fast as they can... Its stupid.

I almost think exagerated body movements like that stem from how cool it looks when THE MUSIC calls for extreme movements just to play the peice. It is cool watching somebody play a crazy Liszt peice, even if you don't like Liszt, its impressive to watch... I think people tried to immitate that movement... and then after time they just forgot what they were imitating but still thought movement was cool.

Excessive motion is not that good if it sacrifices the sound too much (I think it's no use for it in the first place). Although moving a bit with the music to get a good feel is always good (and how you should/could move depends on the genre you're playing of course) and could very much just improve the way it sounds. I can't really get some of that feeling/dynamics right when I play some passages if I just sit still not moving an inch. I like to feel the music I'm playing, not just playing note after note like a computer.

I'm a pretty good fan of both Joshua Bell and Yo-yo ma. Not the best, but I still enjoy listening to them.

I love to move around while I play. While I do not like excessive movement, I cannot stand a lot of musicians who do nothing but make a sound. To me, movement is a way to show emotion, to show that they really care and are inot what they are playing.

... but I mean, if you really wanted to watch somebody move to music...

then you should really go watch a dancer.

I know its not seperate to many people, but it really should be.

Dancers are not (supposed to be) people that move to music. A good dancer BECOMES the music or the absence of it. But that's another conversation...

I don't think Merce Cunningham would agree with your assertion there.