Convulsing while playing isn't expression

Yeah, but they look WAY cool... :P

Hehe. Reading about rock muso's *gyrating* I was reminded of a conversation I heard on classical radio some time ago. The interviewee was a muso/composer of some clout (don't remember who) - but for some reason he felt the need to tear on rock musos.

"I mean...the most simple passages - and if you look at their faces - it's like they're giving birth or something"

I thought it was both funny and grossly generalising. I'd like the guy to play Vai, Satriani, Dream Theater etc.

Some rock musos seem to pay more attention to *image* rather than music, sure - but to lump them all into the same catagory as simpletons pushing each other over for the limelight to display face contortions in spandex misses a whole genre of serious musicians who are serious about art rock.

Some rock musos seem to pay more attention to *image* rather than music, sure - but to lump them all into the same catagory as simpletons pushing each other over for the limelight to display face contortions in spandex misses a whole genre of serious musicians who are serious about art rock.

And then, there's guys like Buckethead, who just stand there while playing some seriously

To each his own - if you wanna flop around like a fool, you'd better have the talent to back it up; likewise, if you just stand there like a robot, please don't try and say you're more musical for not humping like a maniac while you play.

:P

And then, there's guys like Buckethead, who just stand there while playing some seriously

.

;) The guy's claim to fame is wearing a KFC bucket?!! :P

Looks desperate in trying to be original.

;) The guy's claim to fame is wearing a KFC bucket?!! :P

Looks desperate in trying to be original.

True, but he can play the guitar... certainly not my bag, but he can play the scraggy out of it. AND - he doesn't look like a total spaz while doing it!

...

I'd recommend reading "Involuntary Grimace: A Semiotic Morphology of Facial Gesticulation in Jazz Improvisation," a paper by Ross Feller, for the Sixth Annual Conference of the Dutch Society for Music Theory (Utrecht, The Netherlands).

Incidentally, Ross has also written an awesome paper called "On Busking, or the body and Soul of Street Performance," published in The Open Space, Vol. 5, Spring 2004, Red Hook, New York.

They deal with this sort of thing.

I'd recommend reading "Involuntary Grimace: A Semiotic Morphology of Facial Gesticulation in Jazz Improvisation," a paper by Ross Feller, for the Sixth Annual Conference of the Dutch Society for Music Theory (Utrecht, The Netherlands).

Incidentally, Ross has also written an awesome paper called "On Busking, or the body and Soul of Street Performance," published in The Open Space, Vol. 5, Spring 2004, Red Hook, New York.

They deal with this sort of thing.

:P

I don't think Merce Cunningham would agree with your assertion there.

I am not very familiar with his work, but I believe he would whole-heartedly agree. Then again...he may throw some dice to see if he agrees or not! :P

Then there is stuff like this

This guy plays pretty strait faced untill he gets to a hard part. His faces are pretty stupid looking. I guess its cool to know that he has to concentrait. But its even cooler when you see a later video where he plays something so hard that it would have made him be shitfaced a year before, but now its no big deal.

Theres a video where he really gets shitfaced, I think he might have taken it down.

But that guy dancing around stage, just says to me "hey look at me, I'm playing something so easy and rediculous that I don't even have to pay attention!"

I'd recommend reading "Involuntary Grimace: A Semiotic Morphology of Facial Gesticulation in Jazz Improvisation," a paper by Ross Feller, for the Sixth Annual Conference of the Dutch Society for Music Theory (Utrecht, The Netherlands).

Hits JSTOR to find said paper....

HAHAHA.....Semiotic Morphology of Facial Gesticulation. Could there really be a system of semiotics for reading drummer's faces (It's a known fact: drummers have the best grimaces while playing, known as "drummer face")

...Next time, I'll be able to say - Hey, what did you grimace about my mother?"

...

It's a known fact: drummers have the best grimaces while playing, known as "drummer face"

Hmm, that would explain the facial antics of a drummer I've seen playing Jazz in London a couple of times (don't follow him around, just so happened I saw him twice). My friend and I refer to him as the "orgasm drummer".

Hmm, that would explain the facial antics of a drummer I've seen playing Jazz in London a couple of times (don't follow him around, just so happened I saw him twice). My friend and I refer to him as the "orgasm drummer".

Exactly....it's not his fault. He's a drummer.

Is this a pet peeve for anyone else? I was watching Joshua Bell (violinist) play the Tzigane, and the amount of contortions the man goes through is amazing (not positively). I can't believe that people mistake this sort of crap for musical expression or for getting into the music. This stupid American "just get into the music, it'll make up for bad technique" thing is starting to kill me. Pretty soon I'll have to renounce my citizenship.

Who said that the trait you described was a purely American thing? The person who is the worst with this sort of thing is Lang Lang. He rarely plays with the level of musical maturity that you would expect from a professional pianist. And sometimes he butchers pieces worse then anyone. I think he is awful. I believe he is out to please his young immature and uneducated audience. I find that he would rather look cool then to even get into the music in the sense of making sense and being musical.

Now, I have never seen Joshua Bell. I might get to see him next January as he is coming to our town to perform. But I know that this characteristic is not "American" alone. Yo Yo Ma is pretty busy too. I have seen him before and he can pretty much started to do a waltz with his cello, but there is substance. He is an amazing musician. So, not only is this flailing thing not just American, but it does not also constitute a bad quality in playing. People can be moving around and having gun and still be playing like a genius too.

That is my two cents on this issue.

...having gun and still be playing like a genius...

This sounds typically American to me....specifically, Texas. :)

BANG! BANG!

This sounds typically American to me....specifically, Texas. :happy:

BANG! BANG!

:o That was a big typo. I meant to say having fun.

Stop harping on about Lang Lang, he's far better than many other pianists..

Your post actually shows a large naivety in your opinion of his performance.

If convulsing while playing isn't expression, what is?

If you were a prodigy on piano, but you didn't move at all, people would find you EXTREMELY boring. At least, I would.

~Kal

Rachmaninov was known for his immobility at the keyboard. He only moved for technical reason, like leaning a bit to the left to hit A0, etc. He is also known for his technical mastery and his control. Reviewers wrote about his "arms of steel....with a heart of gold". Clearly, he did not bore his audiences. That's all good. But fast, often glib playing was in style at the time. I find many of Rachmaninov's pieces empty of art, impressive technical exercises for the piano that happen to sound vaguely impassioned. So clearly there is no ultimate, comprehensive way of playing the piano. One must balance technique and personality.

I've allways heard that Liszt was a totally show off when he played.

I mean his solo stuff is written to show off technical skill and certiantly requires alot of movement, but I hear he embelished his movements even more. Probably would have been an interesting performer to see.

Yo-Yo-Ma is ridiculous!

I was taugh piano from the Russian school with a great teacher who was all for expressing yourslef but always try and stay in position... I mean you have a "huge" keyboard in front of you. IF you start moving... gently caress it!

Extreme moving is rubbish!

But then again the two distinct examples have cause some rethinking to me:

1. Horowitz: the guy would not move a mussle. Restful he would have the most extreme fff or ppp! no matter what, old or young!

2 Glen Gould: Moving, singing, dancing, standing, whatever he could do to express himself! But he did make music as well! and he was a virtuoso indeed!

I am of the impression that one needs not move exessively to express his music! But in the end, whatever works for eveyrone! As long as it doesn't get in the way of sound, and it doesn't seem ridiculous and pretentious!

But didn't these guys have extremely low/crouched postures? That in itself can is said to put unnecessary strain on the body due in the inbalance weight of the head? But whatever, they made it out alright in the end :P.

I think one should certainly be expressive in music, but it should certainly be more on the subtle side, and do not compromise good body position.

If you want to see a good balance of expression and practicality, check out She-e Wu. She's a marimba artist, and she has a habit of kicking a leg up at high points in the music. (just bending at the knee and kind of jumpng up.) The cool thing is with marimba, you're kind of strafing left or right depending on the passage, so movement is necessary which allows the perfect oppritunity to kick your leg up and "get into it". Her recordings of the 4 rotations pour marimba are incredible. Cool thing about drummers is we have to move around to play our mallet stuff so we can be visually expressive without sacrificing sound quality or control.

I think you might be mistaken. What's wrong with how a person reacts to the music they're performing. I'm not familar with Joshua Bell, but I assume he's a violinist of fairly high calibre? Let him be, and enjoy the music, he probably his.

Don't believe me? Check out Keith Jarrett - possibly the greatest living pianist, he's intense.

Tell me that's not a superior musician 'getting into the music' ...

I HATE THAT GUY!!!!!

STOP loving MOANING through every note!!!! The music is already bad, but he only makes it worse... Goddamnit...

I HATE THAT GUY!!!!!

STOP loving MOANING through every note!!!! The music is already bad, but he only makes it worse... Goddamnit...

He's just expressing himself. I thought it was kind of cheesy but enjoyable.

I HATE THAT GUY!!!!!

STOP loving MOANING through every note!!!! The music is already bad, but he only makes it worse... Goddamnit...

Wow. I am new to this board and I have been reading around trying to get to know what this website is all about. Up to this point, I have been relatively pleased by what I have found. Unfortunately, this comment has really turned me off from this site. Actually this whole thread has. I do not claim to be a great musician, but people like Joshua Bell and Keith Jarrett ARE great musicians and I do not believe that someone "moaning" or moving through their music is a bad thing. Ever heard of Glenn Gould? An undisputed genius. Anyone who complains about his (almost) ever present humming is written off as an idiot. Or, I just finished watching "Straight, No Chaser" about Thelonius Monk, again an undisputed genius who moves like a madman in some of the performances when he slaps his foot around keeping the beat, or stands up and does a few twirls before he sits to play again. Yes, some musicians don't need to move to be musical - great example: Jascha Heifetz, criticized because he moved too LITTLE. He was considered by some critics to be a machine, technically brilliant but not musical. And again, he is an undisputed genius, one of the greatest violinists of all time. So, why don't we all just sit back and enjoy the music. Don't complain about how musicians move or groove to their music, either close your eyes and open your ears or leave and let the rest of us enjoy some extraordinary music. :)

Louis Armstrong singing... man, he looks high. THAT is convulsing. Even his eyeballs pratically pop out.

Louis Armstrong singing... man, he looks high.

He...um...probably was high.

Almost every great drummer gets way into it when they play. and they're still musical. And it doesn't ruin the music. George Benson, Hendrix, Stevie, all those guys are fluid when they play. Bottom line, Convulsing != bad.