do you use your instrment as an aid while composing?

i agree completely with caltech violinist.

when you have learnt how to sing all the 12 notes in music you do not need an instrument to compose with.and especially when you know the melodic devices that composers use to develop a theme you definately dont need an instrument.the great composers didnt need their instruments in order to compose music. most of the time they wrote well away from them because when you write with an instrument your fingers always go where they have been before.You end up rehashing old lines that you already know.think about that for a moment.you learn all these tunes by heart ,and you put them to memory,and then when you want to compose your own stuff you take bits and peices from what you know and you alter the tempo and add a couple of notes here and there and you eventually come up with something.but you are just rehashing your influence.

when you write on paper alone you are detached from your influence and the familiarity of your fingers to fall in recognizable places .you are essetially free to compose NEW stuff.

you end up with lines that you never would have played had you improvised it on the instrument..

the great composers and the ones of this century know this and they detach themselves completely from their instrument when they write.

if you really think about it,your instrument is like a crutch. you rely on it so you can hear what your fingers are doing,but your fingers are more or less moving around familiar teritory.your fingers are a product of your influence.

if you have played nothing but chopin all your life and you try to write a song by improvising on the piano,the most likely outcome will be a tune in the style of chopin.not something new.it will echo your influence.

thats why many composers know this and they refuse to write at their instrument.

ok, you are right at some points, but even if you know how to sing or hear all 12 tones, that it´s not enough... you have to be able to hear several notes at the same time, harmony and counterpoint, dynamics, and all that stuff... I write with only paper and pencil so I agree with you on a lot of things, but I have also used an instrument to improvise and get an idea.. sometimes if you "sing" the notes and then write them it´s like using an instrument, since the voice could be an instrument, so you are not writing with your brain but with your voice... that´s cheating... but, if you listen with your inner ear/brain then you are writing in the way Mahler or Mozart used to write...

i think both ways are great... remember that "impromptus" by the time of 1800 were mostly written with or for a piano... why? think about that... :P

Well actually I sometimes compose beside the piano, and sometimes I just compose in my head, rather hard to explain.

Don't ask how I do it:P

sometimes if you "sing" the notes and then write them it´s like using an instrument, since the voice could be an instrument, so you are not writing with your brain but with your voice... that´s cheating...[/b]

this is an strange comment .

the voice is actually a direct slave of the mind .what ever you produce with your voice comes from your brain.

your inner ear is the instrument and your voice is the meduim.

but anyway i didnt mean that you have to sing to write the music.that would be ridiculous!!

you sing the 12 notes of music to program them into your inner ear and then you dont have to sing them anymore ,you just think them instead and they come alive inside your head.

this is the best way to find the most original theme for a composition.and once you have that theme,the rest is easy.

Since I play the piano, I use it as an assistant, but then it'll be wise to actually understand all the instruments you use in your composition so your composition won't become something impossible to play.

Also you should try to listen to different sounds the instruments make.

I'm composing a string trio at the moment and obviously composing on a piano wasn't that helpful, it'll only be a guide but I have understand how the string instruments work and what they sound like to actually make it like a string piece.

If I could do it without an instrument I would.

I can't hear the music if I'm just writing it out.

What does it take to be able to hear, or at least have an idea about, what your composistions will sounds like, without using the instrument while you do it?

This is what I do.

I used to write almost exclusively on the computer. But then I realised something was missing. For a year, I've switched to combining writing by hand and then going to the computer to type it up. Now get this - I now have a laptop, so what I do is I put it ON TOP of the piano, and write on Sibelius, WITH a real piano!

Isn't that just sick...

depends on waht youre writing, im kinda new to composition but so far the method that i have foudn works best for me is writing directly on the sheet but always near the keyboard to work out some intricacies on it

in a different case, when u are jotting down ur improvisations of coruse you will be improvising at the keyboard with the sheet next to you

likewise you can "improvise" directly on the sheet sometimes

the answer to your question: yes and no

Yes, I use the piano. It's useful because you play more than one note at a time.

apparently stravinsky never composed away from the piano and i think it's safe to say it worked for him, but for more modern work i think it's important to be able work with your mind's ear.

Hello everyone, I'm new here.

Im guessing most people here are classically trained. Ill admit I am not, I have been playing guitar for 6 years now, without a single lesson. I feel I seriously lack music theory knowledge but I am very interested in composition.

Anyway, this thread caught my eye. I don't know too much about classical composers and how they work. I have always had a problem composing on my guitar, I would always use the same chords, picking patterns etc. My ability holds me back from writing the music that is in my mind. When I sit down with the guitar, before you know it, I would have forgotten that music in my head. You can probably guess that this is very frustrating for me.

Now the reason this thread caught my eye is because in my mind I always had the idea that composers *always* used an instrument to compose. I thought because i cant do it with my guitar, well then I would just give up.

I'm just wondering how do you compose without an instrument? Is it because you have memorised all the notes in the chromatic scale and you have developed an ear for it and when you hear that melody in your head you already know what the notes are?

Whatever method you guys use, how do I train myself to to be the same?

jonathan i suggest at least some kind of formal training, be it guitar lessons or whatever... it doesnt have to be specifically composition but just generally speaking classical training will refine your musicality in so many ways

i dont know if you can work with sheet music but thats the number one requirement for what you wanna achieve, after that its just a matter of getting a nice sense of the different intervals and the pitches of notes and dont let that put you off because its so damn easy and EVERYONE has the ability for it unless you are deaf... its about time to demistify the whole "perfect pitch" blabber because its nothing more than a refined sense of pitch which we all possess innately... once you can recognize notes quickly upon hearing them and know what all the different intervals sound like and you are writing them down well you can do the math from there, thats all it takes, and it will definitely help you to write some things away from the instrument... another thing i would suggest is to make an effort to not let yourself sit back and play with these music writing programs for computer... IMO those programs are like cheating and make you sound better than you really are in many cases, since you can just kind of fiddle around with the scraggy on there and make it sound "neat"... its not the real way of doing it and using those programs has more in common with being good at "connect the dots" than creating art... and if you mess with them you will have come no closer to being able to compose away from the instrument than when you started... i stay away from them unless i wanna record a midi of something i wrote on paper first... the best thing is a sheet of paper and your mind's ear working alone, with the instrument next to you to work out some details... no other way around it

on the other hand "composing" if you dont play at least 1 instrument very well doesnt work if you ask me... a lot of your musical thinking will result from instrumental instinct especially with keyboard... as far as im concerned the first step to becoming a composer is knowing and loving your isntrument(s), with an affinity for improvisation

jonathan i suggest at least some kind of formal training, be it guitar lessons or whatever... it doesnt have to be specifically composition but just generally speaking classical training will refine your musicality in so many ways

i dont know if you can work with sheet music but thats the number one requirement for what you wanna achieve, after that its just a matter of getting a nice sense of the different intervals and the pitches of notes and dont let that put you off because its so damn easy and EVERYONE has the ability for it unless you are deaf... its about time to demistify the whole "perfect pitch" blabber because its nothing more than a refined sense of pitch which we all possess innately... once you can recognize notes quickly upon hearing them and know what all the different intervals sound like and you are writing them down well you can do the math from there, thats all it takes, and it will definitely help you to write some things away from the instrument... another thing i would suggest is to make an effort to not let yourself sit back and play with these music writing programs for computer... IMO those programs are like cheating and make you sound better than you really are in many cases, since you can just kind of fiddle around with the scraggy on there and make it sound "neat"... its not the real way of doing it and using those programs has more in common with being good at "connect the dots" than creating art... and if you mess with them you will have come no closer to being able to compose away from the instrument than when you started... i stay away from them unless i wanna record a midi of something i wrote on paper first... the best thing is a sheet of paper and your mind's ear working alone, with the instrument next to you to work out some details... no other way around it

on the other hand "composing" if you dont play at least 1 instrument very well doesnt work if you ask me... a lot of your musical thinking will result from instrumental instinct especially with keyboard... as far as im concerned the first step to becoming a composer is knowing and loving your isntrument(s), with an affinity for improvisation

So you're saying that perfect pitch can be trained? Goody!:happytears:

To answer the main question... my last piece was completly written in a Starbuck coffee... (must I be damned to take my coffee in an american compagny ??... ehehe... out of topic here I guess.. eheh). So I guess that I don't use an instrument for it. Though, it's alway useful to have friends to make sure everything is okay from time to time... since I can't play every instrument.

Any way... the music I write cannot be played on a piano... so ;) But I usually humm my intervals and sentences softly (I probably look like a schizo in a coffe shop... but I like the idea anyway ! eheh).

Of course... I wasn't able to do so few years ago. I guess it goes with training. I feel using an instrument as something restrictive, but I don't deny that I use the computer from time to time though. Especially for rythm... my computer is far more better than I in rythm !! :blush:

So you're saying that perfect pitch can be trained? Goody!:blush:

Every damn thing can be trained

That magic p word "practice" is the secret to everything

Every damn thing can be trained

That magic p word "practice" is the secret to everything

Hmmm... do you have proofs of that ?? I never heard that in any class. Do you have kind of psycho-acoustical or medical references stating that it has been proved or is it just you opinion ?!

It is my humble opinion that anything can be achieved with intense study and practice

Ok. Then maybe it would be fine just to specifie it ! ;) Because even though you practice to have blue eyes... no !? I understand it a non scientific musician forum, but shouldn't we try to state fact when it's possible to do so or at least specify that it's an opinion when it is instead of stating an opinion as 'a pure fact which has to be believed...' because this is short to becoming a religion ! eheh ;)

So to continue on the perfect pitch... my observation on the subject is that entire families I know have it... so I guess there might be some relation to genetic... ;) But it's probably quiet easy to find informations on the subject for those interested ! But someone told me also that it might happen if you're training in music before the age of 6... so maybe it might not be genetic also - I don't know !

I think of course sometimes you can have some innate skills which make things easier, and of course some people are too dumb to learn certain things. But as far as music goes, and specifically this perfect pitch and many other skills too, it can be practiced and learnt. At least in my experience, I found it consisted of nothing more than refining this natural sense of pitch which as far as I can tell most people have to some degree or another. I first started with violin so maybe I wasn't so concentrated on this fixed sense of each pitch as a keyboardist might be. But I realized i had a firm sense of what the E, A, D and G strings sound like. When you hum your favorite tune or something, you are humming it at more or less the key it is actually in. This can be observed even in non-musicians. I think that basic sense of pitch can be refined through practice, with some people more than others, to the point where you can acquire this "perfect pitch".

Experiment, find you own way, it is the best. And then ask yourself what should I improve in my way of writing, not all composers write melodic pieces maybe the focus on the atmosphere of the song etc.

Melodies suck donkey.

I make joke!

Seriously, they do.

Not.

Yep.

Haven't read the whole topic =/

But posting to answer the title question. I usually don't use my instrument to compose. I am writing a concerto for viola right now, and I come up with the themes while playing my viola. I don't know how to play piano, but sometimes I just sit down at one and start playing, and I get some pretty good ideas. Otherwise, I never use instruments to compose.

Hmmm... do you have proofs of that ?? I never heard that in any class. Do you have kind of psycho-acoustical or medical references stating that it has been proved or is it just you opinion ?!

Occassionally I compose at the piano - but it's almost always pretty simple music that takes little effort for me to "learn" - ie: habits of scale runs, arpeggios etc.

When I do this, I am always aware however, of what meter the music will follow, the harmonic rhythm, key changes etc.

I experiment on the piano and improvise...but again - it's usually simple/intermediate or relatively so, music under my fingers - or it may be an idea I just want to test out.

What I've found is that on more ambitious music, I'll try to compose at the instrument - and get frustrated because I am trying to compose *and* learn something I am not used to - which means mistakes, repeats, stutters etc.

What happens is that I'm left with say, for instance:

A 4 bar phrase followed by,

A 4

In my opinion, although an instrument might come handy when composing, therer are times when you simply don't know how to play the oboe, tuba and harp, and you certainly don't have two oboists, a tubist and a harpist with you at all times of composition.

Berlioz, to bring an example, didn't know how to play the piano, and never composed anything for the piano. He said that melodies and harmonies were just "born" in his mind, and he wrote the score and gave it to an orchestra to play it.

In my opinion, the aid of an instrument if important in the beginning, but as one progressed in composition, it is less and less needed, at the point where you can compose without an instrument, and for instruments you don't know how to play (that's how orchestral/ensemble/symphonic works are composed)

Personally, the piano has helped me -so far- compose my pieces, and it even gave me the basic idea for a string quartet, which I continued without the piano. Also, the first song I ever wrote on finale was a song, and although I had the main idea on the piano, I started writing it in finale, and I finished it on finale. Half the piece was written without the piano, and I was amazed to finish it and go like "wait... it's my piece and I... don't know how to play it on the piano... (at least the second half)".

That's my $0.02

:happy:

keyboard is indispensable