Non-Dominant Seventh Chords

I've recently been experimenting with major/minor 7th chords in an orchestral context.

Thus far, the only instrument combination I've found that doesn't sound completely horrible is pizzicato strings, presumably because the notes aren't sounding long enough for the dissonence to be noticed.

Does anyone know of any other ways of orchestrating the said chords so they don't make you want to shred off a layer of your own skin, rub yourself down with salt and jump into a vat of vinegar?

Thanks, Mark :(

Do you mean the Minor/Major seventh chord which occurs as the diatonic 7th chord on the root degree of the harmonic minor scale?

Or Major and Minor chords as for example would occur as diatonic 7th chords on the root degree (Major) and sixth degree (Minor) of a major scale?

The only one of those I've really used at all is the minor 7th, I find that adding the 7th degree 'dilutes' the 'minorness' of the chord (it creates a major triad between the third, fifth and seventh). So for example if you are working with a chord progression and a minor chord is sounding a little too 'minor', try adding the 7th to dull its edge, or even remove the root completely, leaving you with a diatonic major sounding chord on the third of the original minor triad.

No, I wasn't referring to a minor chord with a major seventh, sorry, forgot about those :(

I've used minor and major seventh chords quite a lot, but what I need to is to find nice ways of orchestrating where the seventh doesn't show up too much and sound to dissonant, any ideas?

Thanks, Mark :thumbsup:

There are a few variables at play here, such as the inversion you want, and how you approach the voice leading (if at all), and the choice/distribution of instruments.

Beginning with the instruments, it's best to avoid instruments with particularly edgy tones. The horn, for example, has a much softer and more neutral tone than the oboe and would be better suited to taking the seventh. The oboe or trumpet, then, would be best off supporting the root of the chord. Another thing to keep in mind is the ranges. Let's say you're doing a tutti Fmaj7 in root position; the notes will probably lie somewhere over the span of 4 or 5 octaves. There are several things to note in this scenario:

- many instruments may sound more striking and edgy in their more extreme ranges, such as the trumpet in its upper range. For a more balanced sound these instruments are best placed in a more comfortable range.

- as illustrated in Principles of Orchestration, clustering tones too closely together can really take away from a balanced sound. Try out the chord construction on a piano with generous 5ths and 4ths in the lower register and then closer construction higher up, and then take that to the score and make adjustments as needed.

- try putting the 7th somewhere in the mid-to-upper range of the chord with a soft-toned instrument; if it's too low it'll be ugly, if it's too high it'll be more dissonant. To avoid the dissonance, don't place it right next to the root of the chord and also, avoid doubling it in other instruments.

Here's an example I quickly made up (not transposed, 'cept for the double bass):

Another nice construction, though, is to have the seventh in the bass (which doesn't make much of a cadence but is a lovely chord anyhow), which you could make as a variation off the given example by making the Horn an F or a C and bumping the contrabass and tuba down to an Eb.

There are lots of variations you can make on that example that would keep a nice balance (put the bassoons down to the nearest C, switching the Bb Clarinet and the Violin II, so on and so forth). With a different choice of instrumentation comes more thought as to a more delicate construction, but these are general concepts that help me construct chords even beyond maj/min 7th. I dunno, mess around with the orchestra a little, see what happens. :(

Thanks very much for your reply, it's helped a lot. I tried out that tutti chord, but with an F major seventh, and it sounded really good :thumbsup:

Your advice is all extremely helpful, I shall print it off and stick it on my wall somewhere :(

Would you happen to have any tips on seventh chords in seperate groups of the orchestra? Like how a 7th chord in arco strings, or woodwinds?

Thanks very much for your help, it is very much appreciated.

:(

One more thing I noticed, the doubling of trumpets and oboes sounded particularly brutal :(

That's a good observation, probably best to move the oboes down to C or maybe even middle C.

Constructing these 7th chords in specific sections follows more or less the same guidelines except obviously we have to go back to square one and decide how the same ideas apply differently.

For example, here's a very brief overview of the woodwinds:

Flutes-

upper range: shrill, piercing

mid range: milder, a little warm

lower range: very warm

Oboes-

upper range: very direct and piercing

mid range: still direct but darker

lower range: very dark

Clarinets-

extreme upper range: ill, a bit feeble

mid range: gentle and light

lower range: much warmer but still gentle

Bassoons-

upper range: light and a bit warm

mid range: darker and grainier

lower range: very dark and grainy

One possible construction is (keeping in mind that the fifth isn't so necessary):

The choices are based on tone quality and range, basically. Bassoon is the lowest so it naturally gets the root. The clarinet is the softest in tone and gets the 7th. The leading tone is important so it's given to the oboe. The tonic is doubled in the flute to emphasize it a little.

If you want to go divisi you can add a C above that F in the basoons and an F below middle C in the clarinet or something to make it a little more full.

I have to dash now, no time to do the brass, but you'd approach construction in the same way so it'd be a good thing to experiment on.

Thanks so much for the help, I'll have a try with different instrument combinations, possibly post here for the reference of others if I hit upon anything nice.

Thanks again, Mark :(

I've had play about, and found ways of voicing these type of chords in winds, brass and strings:

An Am7 in strings.

A CM7 in winds.

An FM7 in brass.

Your advice has been extremely helpful :(

You can always split up the seventh into two open fifths, to dilute the "edginess" of it - though personally, I find sevenths have a very smooth sounding dissonance for the most part.

Heck with non-dominant sevenths. Try major ninths. They rock so much, I based my first performed piece on them. Five instruments = perfect number.

Mmmmmmmmmm I love maj.7 chords. Especially when you position them with the 1 against the #7.

3-#7-1-5!!!! Its the way to go.

Hands, I agree, 9th chords are extremely nice, of both varieties. When playing with big hairy chords like that I tend to skip out the fifth, gets in the way a little.

TMoL, that sounds rather horrible :blink:

Mmmmmmmmmm I love maj.7 chords. Especially when you position them with the 1 against the #7.

The what? #7 !? I'll assume this you classical folks talkin' weird.

You see...to me, #7 = 1. No?

:blink:

CMaj7

I like voicing it with the 7 on the bottom... (add 9)

B-D-E-G

Hippify it with a #11, instead of the 5th.

B-C-E-F#

...jazz.

Robin, you appear to have omitted the root instead of the fifth...?

C D E B .. :)?

Robin, you appear to have omitted the root instead of the fifth...?

C D E B .. :)?

Oops....should've specified it as a rootless voicing. Comes from a piano/comping point of view (I suppose assuming the root is somewhere else)

iimin7 - V7 - IMaj7 (Dmin7 - G7 - CMaj7, for example)

C-E-F-A >> B-E-F-A >> B-D-E-G

Outlines the harmony without needing to lay down the root. Perhaps I should do up a lesson - jazz theory primer.

...ANYWAY, just another point of view - the root is also an expendable chord tone, garnering different/better/hipper colours and textures.

...

You know of any people who use such 'hip' chords in an orchestral context?

You know of any people who use such 'hip' chords in an orchestral context?

No, but I know people who use 'orchestral context' with hip chords.

HAHAHA...No, I'm not being an donkey. What I mean is, rather than bringing jazz theory to an orchestral approach, many writers bring the orchestral approach to jazz. If that makes any sense.

Specifically:

Maria Schneider - whom I no longer consider a jazz composer. She's constantly evolving towards a more orchestral approach - i.e. heavy woodwind doubles; programmatic nature of her music; very textural writing, emphasis on colour and timbre, rather than typical jazz nonsense of rhythm and feel. Also, where common writing for large jazz ensembles is about a 50/50, maybe 60/40 split of written vs. improvised material - Maria gets into 80/20, even 90/10 ratios - her pieces are meticulously composed, with spectacular results. It's a very different approach she has, distinct and wholly original - ever more remote from 'jazz' with each new record, she must be heard to be understood.

The clips on her website give a good impression - though her pieces (not often less than 10 minutes long) are best absorbed through a full listening.

Check out:

Allegresse - Hang Gliding (possibly one of the greatest pieces of music of all time, I'm serious. Listen to the clip)

Allegresse - Dissolution (a perfect example of her 'orchestral' approach)

Concert in the Garden - Dan

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