Abstract Modes And Scales

Hi, I am new here, but I have been reading posts for a while and decided to join. Does anyone know where I can find information on the internet about abstract modes and scales, as well as the chords that go with them? Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

Colin Thomson

What exactly do you mean by abstract? Do you mean just the modes of the major scale, or the ones of the harmonic and melodic minor aswell, or even modal pentatonics?

Yeah, I don't quite see where you're getting at.....abstract modes? Do you mean lesser known/used scales?

Modes of the Major and Melodic Minor scales are very common (Dorian, Lydian, Mixolydian b6, Altered) ...even the harmonic minor scale is not uncommon.

When you get into synthetic scales (i.e. invented: see Coltrane's In-Sen scale - C Db F G Bb). I dunno...there's also countless foreign scales: Indian, Indonesian Gamelan, Turkish/Balkan... also Jewish klezmer has a unique set of modes.

...just some thoughts.

Does anyone know where I can find information on the internet about abstract modes and scales, as well as the chords that go with them?

Are you meanning pitch classes or then what exactly?

I guess I mean lesser known, more foriegn scales. I understand about the modes of the Major scale, but I would like to learn more about other less known ones. I heard that the Darth Vader theme is actually based off of a very uncommon mode and chord pattern. I would just like a reference for lesser known modes. Thanks.

Colin Thomson

Dig: chord/scale simulator - www.apassion4jazz.com

A very cool tool, demonstrates chords and/or associated scales. Pretty much any scale/mode imaginable in western music (and many other's that aren't) is there... even VERY obscure references to George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept - 'Auxiliary diminished blues scale' anyone?!

Check it out, explore random sonorities, it'll open your ears!

...

YES YES YES, that is exactly what I was looking for. I can spend some time with that. Thank you so much.

Colin Thomson

YES YES YES, that is exactly what I was looking for. I can spend some time with that. Thank you so much.

:w00t: You're welcome, and have fun!

If you are interested in expanding into the microtonal range, here's a program which contains quite a number of different scales and modes - Scala

If you need help on microtones :D I'm the specialist, so feel free to ask questions for references... but I already posted a few stuff, so make sure to search for Dunael's posts first ! :)

Cheers.

Well, the subject of microtones does fascinate me, but I pretty much use my keyboard and the Vienna Symphonic library to mock-up an orchestra, so I don't know of it would be possible to impliment it into my writing. Any suggestions on how to do it with the means at my disposal would be appreciated. It's possible that pitch bend would be the best option.

So, Dunael, what would you consider a good text on the use of microtones? I am a beginner on the subject. Thanks.

Colin Thomson

Spc1st, I am using an Apple MacBook Pro, and I followed the directions for downloading it and running it. But when I try to start up the application, it pretends to start it, but nothing is happening. Any suggestions?

Colin... do you use Kontak ?? It's really easy to do microtones with Kontak... just use the Scripts ! :laugh:

Nope, sorry I just use Vienna Symphonic inside of Logic Pro 7, with keyboard midi hooked up through USB on my MacBook Pro. That pretty much describes my system. But I have had a thought about how it could work. In the Vienna window, you can specify how much cents you want the pitch bend wheel to cover. Then, in the automation of logic, you can tell the pitch bend wheel to go exactly where you want it in the piece. It would be some work, but it would probably end up working.

Colin Thomson

Hey Colin,

I am a big fan of exploring strange, weird and wonderful scales. I would recommend purchasing the book "The Guitar Grimoire - Scales and Modes" put out by Carl Fischer. I know it is not on the internet but it has exactly what you're looking for.

But here's a little something to play around with:

The Persian Scale - 1 b2 3 4 b5 b6 7 or (C Db E F Gb Ab B)

Harmonic Major - 1 2 3 4 5 b6 7 or (C D E F G Ab B)

My recommendation to learn how to familiarize yourself with these modes is to write out a harmony chart for the mode you are interested in. This just means to write out the triad that would occur beginning on each note of the mode. For example the Major Scale harmony chart is: CM Dm Em FM GM Am Bdim.

When you do this for the Persian Scale for example you get some seriously strange chords and sounds. I tried to come up with a name for some of these chords such as Augminished (1 3 b5) and Dimented (1 bb3 b5).

If you are interested and you have FInale I can send you a number of short compositions that I wrote as experiments in learning the Persian Scale better so you can get a feel for what characteristics the scale has. It is a strange scale... do not confuse it with the Spanish/Indian scale...it is stranger.

John Henry

If I can specify... Persian music is more complexe than a scale... it has wholes sets of scales with microtones in it... The low-quarter-tones (which are nearer to the third of a tone (around 33 cents) are used in that way :

C (+0c)

(either Db+12c, Db+38c or D+4c natural)

(either Eb+16c, Eb+42c or E-14c natural)

(etiher F-2c, F+20c or F+51c or F#-10c with a D in the scale or Gb+10 with as Bb)

G+2c

(either Ab+14c, Ab+40c or A+6c with a D and A-16c with a F)

(either Bb(see my previous post about Bb!!), Bb+44c or B-12c natural)

C

With these tunning you'll get the pure tunning... Tunnings can varies though... but start with this as a basic exploration !! But know that the use of quarter tones (even though Persian intervals are softer than Arabs ones) sounds a bit rougher than indian refined intervals :)

These are the possible intervals - this theory can be discussed otherwise by other theoricians of course)... but of course you cannot use all these microtones at the same time... mostly a maximum of two in a same scale. Persian music can modulate (in the real 'changing the mode' term) to change de mood during a same piece... of course, as a composer... you can change whenever you want or treat all this as you wish!... it's only informations about persian modes after all !! eheh

And modes can begin on other notes than the given C... as any western modes can (dorian, phrygian... etc)...

wow, lots of info. I'll have to spend some time digging through the things you guys have given me. I already had reserved the guitar grimoire from the library, so that is on its way. Dunael, with your last sentence are you saying that the D Dorian Persian scale would start on D, but be the same notes as the C Persian scale?

Sorry, I am very much a beginner with this. But I don't see any reason behind what you are saying about all of the notes plus or minus however many cents. Is there a good beginning place to start with for me? Thank you.

Colin Thomson

Sorry, JOHNHENRYSHERIDAN, I don't have Finale. Would love to get it sometime, though.

Colin Thomson

Hi Colin... hmmm yes it's quiet a lot of informations... there must be a lot to learn in Wiki... tuning, pitch, and so on... but it might be a bit hard to understand starting out of nowhere. I would say start by finding stuff about Just Intonation... it already give a good start to understand musical intervals.

******

But first of all... to understand all this you must learn about the harmonic serie... which is the base to everything.

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The basic concept is to understand that any instrumentalist won't play in egal temperament (the way pianos are tuned)... but we refer to this egal temperament to notate pitch references... so in egal temperament C, Db, D, Eb, E, F and so on are alway with a 0c deviation since they are egal.

So 1st thing : egal temperament chromatic scale (the reference of todays' music is :

C+0 Db+0 D+0 Eb+0 E+0 F+0... and so on.

Now!... music isn't working that way in the faked nature of life of the human ear ! Egal temperament is an approximation of the most simple intervals with all egal steps between each other. But in 'real life' there is a variety of sounds in which a very few are very simple tones... or pure tones as we call them.

Pure tones are like the Octave (C+0 C'+0) which is expressed in frequency rational number by 2:1 or 2/1. If you're smart with fractions here what these ones stand for... If you have a A 440 Hz... it's pure octave will be A' 880Hz... thus... if you reduce the highest number on the lowest to create a ratio you have 880/440 or 2/1.

A second pure tone is the pure fifth... the pure fifth is the 3rd harmonic in the harmonic serie and is expressed by the ratio 3/1. The pure fifth is a very very little bit higher than the egal temperate counterpart... it is almost 2c higher. So if you take the number of semi-tone in cents up to the fifth (C=0, Db=100, D=200, Eb=300...G=700)... the pure fifth will be at G=702c.

The fifth harmonic is the pure major third expressed by the ratio (5/1) and it's value in cents is 386c... which means that the pure major third is around 14c lower than the temperate major third of 400c.

The two most important intervals to remember for now are the octave, pure third and the pure fifth (each corresponding to 1200c, 386c and 702c).

Now we will play a game !! (for music theory is fun eheh)

We will combine these three intervals only to build up whole scales... but we must never have one number below 0c and over 1200c so it stands in one octave only (1200c). So we have to find all the combinaisons in additioning the number and/or substracting these number !

So we have :

0c+0c = 0c ©

0c+386c = 386c (E)

0c+702c = 702c (G)

1200c-0c = 1200c (C')

1200c-386c = 814c (Ab)

1200c-702c = 498c (F)

386c+386c = 772c (G# low which is the pure major third of E 386c)

386c+702c = 1088c (B or the 15th harmonic (harmonics 5x3!))

702c+702c-1200c = 204c (D)

1200c-386c-702c = 112c (Db)

1200c-386c-386c = 428c (very acute E)

702c+702c+386c-1200c = 590c (F#, the pure M3 of D)

1200c-702c-702c+1200c = 996c (Bb)

1200c+1200c-702c-702c-386c = 610c (Gb)

And so on !!!...

I'll show you more precise stuff about that... it might seems abstract like that... but it really really represent the way the instrumentalists brains works... ok, enough for now... it's toooo much stuff to explain just by writing here.

OK, you have done a very good job at explaining things, and it is starting to click on some things that other explanations always fell short on. But I have a question about the ratios. I understand how 2;1 would obviously be an octave, but, say we start at A 440 Hz. Taking the ratio 3;1 for a fifth above this A, you would get a note that is 1320 Hz, because 3/1 = x/1 = x=1320 (tell me if I'm off). This not is obviously higher than the octave of 880 Hz, so how could it be a fifth, which should be a smaller interval than an octave? Are you taking the interval from the octave 880 Hz to 1320 Hz and calling that a fifth? I have a feeling I am going to need to understand this before it goes any farther. Thanks.

Colin Thomson

You're absolutly right !!

Frequencies are logorythmical... so it work different than with the midi cents... if you want to transpose an octave lower in cents... you just substract 1200c... but in frequencies (Hz) you need to divide the frequency by 2.

So... 1320Hz (which is the 3rd harmonic of a A) divided by 2 = 660 Hz... a pure fifth higher in the same octave.

So... let's take 220Hz as a fundamental :

Fund. 1 = 220Hz

Harm. 2 = 440Hz

Harm. 3 = 660Hz

Harm. 4 = 880Hz

Harm. 5 = 1100Hz

Harm. 6 = 1320Hz

Harm. 7 = 1540Hz

And so on...

But an harmonic scale within the same octave would be :

A(220Hz), D#(1100Hz/4=275Hz), F#(660Hz/2=330Hz), low G(1540Hz/4=385Hz)

The other notes are just multiples of 2 of previous harmonics... which means that they are octaves ! :angry:

Wowwee! Dunael, are you currently studying to be a physics proffesor because I think you may qualify:D

I am aware of the imperfections of equal temperment, but if you want to have a trippy experience, try playing your favorite major melodies in the Persian scale on piano by flatting your 2, 5, and 6. It's a very interesting experience:thumbsup:

Colin, if you provide a mailing address I could send you a CD of those Persian experiment pieces. But only if you would really like to hear them, otherwise there is no point.

It is nice to be aware of the scientific specifics of what is going on in the sonic kingdom, but remember that this is music not science and the main thing is to have a good old time!:cool:

Hey Duneal, do you have to use a seperate script rather than the ones that come with Kontakt? I messed around with it some before, and the default microtoning script seems to only lets divide the octave by 12. Also, do you know how to import Scala data to Kontakt?

Yeah, i try not to get too caught up in it, but this is all new to me, so I am fascinated with the posibilities. It's amazing how much was put into the area of sound alone when God created the universe. So we turned it into 12 equal spacings between octaves to simplify it so that we could use it easily. But there is so much more out there. Sort of lets you know how small we really are :cool:

Colin Thomson