Who is the Greatest (Not Favourite) Composer

No, I'm not joking.

I've been giving some thought on this Mozart vs. Beehtoven

So I think we should tally it up!

Orchestration: Personally Beehtoven,(Pastorale) Though Mozart knew how to properly balance the orchestra.

Memorable Melodies: As I can think of Beehtoven had tons more. LIke Fur Elise, Ode to Joy, BUM BUM BUUUUMMMMM Beehtoven's 5th. Only One I can think of for mozart that is popular with the kids today is Eine Kleine Nacht.

Accesible: I'd say Mozart. Lee brought up a good point about Mozart's ability to make music that can work with many different festivals/church music.

Structure: I think this is what Beehtoven is known for and since I'm beehtoven biased I'd give it to HIM!!

Counterpoint: NOW thats a toughy

Innovative: BEEHTOVEN! modernist he is!

3:2:1

There is probably tons more but this is all I can think of at the moment. So you guys/gals start think'n up more like this. ANd LETS TALLY EM UP!!!

i'd make a few disagreements with that statement.

Orchestration: fair enough, you prefer beethoven. id have to go for mozart because of his wonderful knowledge of all the instruments, and how to write well for them, and the wonderful way he makes use of them. but i heartily agree that beethoven was great at orchestration too.

Memorable melodies, id say mozart again.

beethoven has ode to joy, 5th symphony, fur elise. that's about it.

i take it by memorable melodies you mean ones the general public know well, because he has far more than those 3.

mozart has the andante from piano concerto 21. eine kleine nachtmusik. piano sonata 16 (facile). possibly marriage of figaro overture. queen of the night aria. symphony 40 1st movement. probably some more.

btw, if you disagree, ive heard most of those as ringtones :blink:

oh yeah, and for beethoven moonlight sonata.

but on the whole, id say mozart has more.

accessable. well some from each composer. probably mozart more.

but accessability is nothing to do with being a great composer. it maybe was at the time, when he had to compose to please certain people, but we're a different generation now, so accessability isnt a measure of greatness.

structure... i dont know. theres just something about the structure of the first movement of beehoven's fourth piano concerto that annoys me.

but apart from that his structure seems good to me. obviously he made a lot of innovations, so il give this one to Beethoven.

Mozart's structure always seems to be perfect to my ears, but he didn't make the innovations that beehoven did/ (some say that makes him greater, but come on, Beethoven hasnt got any points yet)

Counterpoint.... well Beethoven has the Grosse Fugue, and the Hammerklavier sonata, but Mozart has the Finale of the Jupiter Symphony, and finale of piano concerto 19, and the C minor fugue for two pianos (attached)

Im not sure...... maybe tie. im not familiar enough with both the composers' contrapuntal works to say.

Innovative, ok, yea Beethoven.

so thats 3:2 plus a tie.

btw, i included the midi of that mozart fugue i mentioned, because i dont think many people have heard it, and it really is good.

Yeah, I don't think we can say that the most popular melodies are the most memorable...

I saw the Borodin Quartet play the Grosse Fuge last month. Ah, that was something. (Especially since I'd managed never to have heard the piece.)

Originally posted by Chad dream eyes@Nov 21 2005, 12:27 PM

Brahms Sonata for Clarinet was pretty bad(made in his later part of life). I disliked it quite a bit. Though his trios are quite amazing. SO chamber music is quite the diverse little bunch :blink:

I wouldn't say "pretty bad" to that. It's a different kind of piece from the rest, but I still love it. (That said, it's interesting that, IMHO, the viola transcription sounds better than the original.)

i'd make a few disagreements with that statement.

Orchestration: fair enough, you prefer beethoven. id have to go for mozart because of his wonderful knowledge of all the instruments, and how to write well for them, and the wonderful way he makes use of them. but i heartily agree that beethoven was great at orchestration too.

Memorable melodies, id say mozart again.

beethoven has ode to joy, 5th symphony, fur elise. that's about it.

i take it by memorable melodies you mean ones the general public know well, because he has far more than those 3.

mozart has the andante from piano concerto 21. eine kleine nachtmusik. piano sonata 16 (facile). possibly marriage of figaro overture. queen of the night aria. symphony 40 1st movement. probably some more.

btw, if you disagree, ive heard most of those as ringtones ;)

oh yeah, and for beethoven moonlight sonata.

but on the whole, id say mozart has more.

accessable. well some from each composer. probably mozart more.

but accessability is nothing to do with being a great composer. it maybe was at the time, when he had to compose to please certain people, but we're a different generation now, so accessability isnt a measure of greatness.

structure... i dont know. theres just something about the structure of the first movement of beehoven's fourth piano concerto that annoys me.

but apart from that his structure seems good to me. obviously he made a lot of innovations, so il give this one to Beethoven.

Mozart's structure always seems to be perfect to my ears, but he didn't make the innovations that beehoven did/ (some say that makes him greater, but come on, Beethoven hasnt got any points yet)

Counterpoint.... well Beethoven has the Grosse Fugue, and the Hammerklavier sonata, but Mozart has the Finale of the Jupiter Symphony, and finale of piano concerto 19, and the C minor fugue for two pianos (attached)

Im not sure...... maybe tie. im not familiar enough with both the composers' contrapuntal works to say.

Innovative, ok, yea Beethoven.

so thats 3:2 plus a tie.

btw, i included the midi of that mozart fugue i mentioned, because i dont think many people have heard it, and it really is good.

Hey Dan,

I'm hearing what your saying and will partially agree.

Well let's give Beethoven some Points now..... :)

In terms of Memorable melodies, 2 of Beethoven's Symphonies are remembered (5,9) whereas only 1 of Mozart (out of 40 because 37 Doesnt count as Mozart's work according to me or most sane people - In that sense so shouldn't No.3 ;)) Qualifies or rather, is popular.

Orchestration - No need to even think. Beethoven was a master of orchestration. Have a look at Symphony No.7. Look at the skill involved in using a "Mozart sized" Orchestra and getting the sound he did. Now that's skill. As for knowledge of Instruments - Beethoven did play the Violin in his early life and there is possibly no composer I'm aware of who was more interested in the working of instruments & that spent more time talking to instrument makers and finding out about instruments - they're capabilities and "When they're going to be made Better".

In terms of counterpoint & Structure, Beethoven and Brahms were the fanatics, but no need for Brahms here. Beethoven was so driven for perfection that he secretly had lessons with the famed counterpoint teacher Albreschtsberger. Examples out of 9 Symphonies are 3 of the works or sections in certain movements containing unmarked Fugues compared with 1 of Mozart's Symphonies having a "marked" fugue. Now Brahms too, like Beethoven (most of the time), never announced through title indications " FUGA " - they just weaved it into their music. Here is what I believe to be the most supreme and stupendous example of Beethoven's contrapuntal skills - (The Largo- Allegro risoluto from the 2nd Hammerklavier - Oh yes there are 2 Hammerklavier Sonatas - midi attatched Op.106). So I think that does it for counterpoint.

Oh I might mention, Beethoven just doesnt have the Grosse Fugue & the 2 Hammerklavier Sonatas, but also The last movement of Eroica as a 5 part fugue (Juipiter's last movement is also a 5 part fugue) and more than enough snippets of contrapuntal writing in No.5 (Scherzo) and No.9 (Scherzo & Finale).

Hey I love Mozart, have got nothing against him. But Beethoven, for me, has more meaning.

(Unfortunaltely the MIDI of Op.106's Largo-Allegro Risoluto is only available in 2 parts from the Classical Archives)

Akhil.G

I agree mostly with all your points there, but still don't know about the tally.

Plus, the memorable melodies don't just have to be from symphonies.

Sometimes for me, as well, Beethoven has more meaning, but that doesn't say how good as a composer he was really.

Plus... Beethoven was somewhat responsible for the beginning of the romantic era, which in turn eventually lead to modern "music" (very eventually)

So in that respect, Beethoven can be held responsible ;)

Which takes like 20 of his tally, lol.

On orchestration: it's worth noting that Beethoven was partially responsible for the invention of the contrabassoon.

I geuss I should replace memorable with popular. ;)

But I think there is a reason why it is popular. I mean, it just can't be random!

Originally posted by Maestro Akhil Gardner@Nov 19 2005, 06:44 AM

Well, Do you really think Grieg has the slightest chance of ever being Crowned the gretest composer ??? Let's have a look at his Genres of Composition - 1 Piano Concerto, 1 Piano Sonata, 1 Symphony - The work was so bad that the composer requested it never be performed !! Hundreds of Miniatures. I agree that he was possibly the most lyrically gifted - after Schubert, Chopin and the Russians........... but in Classical Music - the composer who writes the best melody dosent exactly write the best music !! (Brilliant Examples - Beethoven & Brahms).

Oh and yes .... the selection is totally biased  ;)

Come on Beethoven Fans - Mozart seems to be catching up - get voting !!

Akhil G.

Grieg didn't think his symphony was bad. He just thought it would look bad compared to his friend Johan Svendsen's two symphonies. I'm too busy rigth now to write more, but i can say i disagree with MOST of the stuff you said. ;)

, He didn't like anything that he wrote that was full orchestral.

A grieg saying:

"It is not for me to build lofty places and mighty cathedrals of music, but rather cottages, in which men may dwell and rest their hearts"

Also Beehtoven disliked many many many OF his piano sonatas.

So to base how good a composer is by how much they like their music is tottally out of the question.

My god! I have been misinformed! That saying does make a lot of sense and sounds perfectly Grieg-ish. :P

EDIT: I added Grieg to your poll, Akhil. I thought you wouldn't mind, since you are so confident in Beethoven's victory. :P

My god! I have been misinformed!

Hey! Haydn is known as the father of the symphony you punk :P :angry:

Although Beehtoven may be the greatest :cool:

Originally posted by Chad dream eyes@Nov 25 2005, 01:15 PM

Hey! Haydn is known as the father of the symphony you punk :P  :angry:

Although Beehtoven may be the greatest :cool:

Before you call me a punk ... I might pay to realize that I have taken that into consideration. You seem to insult my intellegence. But I don't take anything Personally - Haydn may be called "The Father of the Symphony" but by no means was he the first or the greatest !! As for voting - No one will vote for Haydn hence the most obvious cut !!

DO YOU CARE DISAGREE ??

Akhil G.

Actually, I know someone who would vote for Mendelssohn without a second thought. And I would consider him far more significant than either Chopin, Schubert, or Grieg. Not only as a composer, but as the conductor who revived Baroque music.

Actually, I know someone who would vote for Mendelssohn without a second thought. And I would consider him far more significant than either Chopin, Schubert, or Grieg. Not only as a composer, but as the conductor who revived Baroque music.

Yes , Ofcourse. My apologies. It did slip my mind. The all important Premire of Bach's St.Matthew's Passion under Mendelssohn's direction. :D

Akhil G.

Does Anyone Care to Vote furthur ? Or should we just accept Beethoven as " The Greatest Composer " ?

ok, bach was the father, mozart did so much and so did beethoven... but to me the greatest is the one who actually discovered "a view" in music, poems, lieders... that one would be Schubert.. who by the way died when he was 31 years old... and didn´t start that early compared to mozart... and he did so much for the development of the song, and he also influenced Liszt so much to the point of writing his symphonic poems, the "view" in music, the sight of art in music, thanks to that, mahler came to the world to give us not poems, or music based on novels, books or poems, but from nature... mahler heard the music from the world, what god actually gave him... so if mahler was on that list, you would know really who I voted for

Sadly, only two individuals have succesfully completed the test. Obviously, the correct answer was Bach.

Beethoven, hands down. Even many of the other composers on that list (Brahms, Schubert) would even agree with that.

I'm surprised that Brahms hasn't even gotten a single vote, he's definitely a top 5 on my mind.

Not really... Brahms is by far my favorite composer, but Beethoven was easily more influntial. That said, a case could be made for Brahms.

I'm surprised that people voted for Schubert, Tchaikovsky, and Grieg over him. Tchaikovsky is notable for his orchestration, but otherwise wasn't especially creative; Schubert was a very good composer but almost entirely derivative; and none of Grieg's works are really considered great masterpieces.

I'm surprised that people voted for Schubert, Tchaikovsky, and Grieg over him..... (Brahms)

Well, to tell you the truth, he is the one composer on the list i've never heard a single work from. Maybe I don't count though, i'm pretty narrow minded when it comes to pre-modern music and mostly just listen to Grieg, Mozart and Prokofiev.

none of Grieg's works are really considered great masterpieces.

I guess it depends on how you define ''masterpiece''. ;)

I see some problems, for example, the people nominated aren't even in the same cabliber, for example, Chopin only composed piano music, a few concertos, he had no Symphonies or Operas, how can you put him in the same category as Beethoven or Mozart? He should be taken off, Gustav Mahler should be added instead, because he influenced the second vienese school, and initiated hte Modern movement.

Bach- Master of Baroque

Haydn/mozart Masters of Classicism

Beethoven (Master of early Romanticism)

Tchakovsky, Schubert, Wagner, Mahler (Masters of Late Romanticism)

Shostakovich

Stravinsky

they should be rated instead

Schubert was an early romantic. He died shortly after Beethoven.