The chamber - split discussion

Wow, you turn your back for a couple of hours and bam all hell breaks loose. Looks like I have missed out on quite a debate here. I thought I ought to clarify that I have never ever written my music with the audience in mind. The only time I consider the listener is when it is a specific brief or I am working on a project that requires such a thing. When I write my music though it is for me only and if people like it then that is a bonus.

Saul, you say why would people read a book about something they are not interested in? To broaden their horizons and knowledge of course! It's such a close minded view that you will totally side step anything that does not fit your comfortable bubble.

Also you talk about music all around us as being based on the 7 notes of the scale and you list birdsong? It has been proven that birdsong is often constructed from microtones so you are incorrect there.

You know what Saul?

Next time you feel like posting a review to MY works, please make sure you have heard all the work :)

I will respect your request.

Saul, you say why would people read a book about something they are not interested in? To broaden their horizons and knowledge of course! It's such a close minded view that you will totally side step anything that does not fit your comfortable bubble.

Also you talk about music all around us as being based on the 7 notes of the scale and you list birdsong? It has been proven that birdsong is often constructed from microtones so you are incorrect there.

Its an example. Most people do read things that they have an interest for, and will not bother with things they don’t find interesting. Anyways, I don’t know why this sounds so foreign to you.

About the Birdsong, even its melodies can be fitted to the seven scale note. This is not my invention , it is Kabbalah that discusses these things. You can say that you don’t believe in Kabbalah, that’s your Choice, but to dismiss as ludicrous before you have mastered the entire wisdom of Jewish mysticism , would make you a hypocrite, because in fact you are dismissing something before knowing or listening to the whole thing.

+ What Robin said. cheers Robin :)

:) I just have no patience for pretense...I come across a lot of it in the free jazz world. Charlatans are quickly weeded out, and promptly ignored.

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Meanwhile, on the topic of bird song:

We cannot doubt the animals both love and practice music. That is evident. But it seems their musical system differs from ours. It is another school ... We are not familiar with their didactic works. Perhaps they don't have any.

Among the artistic hierarchy, birds are probably the greatest musicians to inhabit our planet.

Its an example. Most people do read things that they have an interest for, and will not bother with things they don

Did you know, Saul, that Mozart's music met with frequent criticism in his time for being too audacious and complex? (see for example New Grove Dictionary of Music:, 'Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus: 11. Aftermath: reception and scholarship') In fact he was also accused of being obsessed with dissonance!

I'm guessing that when you talk of "charm and beauty" you're referring to some sort of model of beauty you hear in pre-1945 music. But these things are not constants, you can't talk about beauty as if it has any fixed meaning, because it doesn't.

Ideas of beauty and charm etc. are subjective, true, but they are also strong cultural concepts - what was beautiful to someone born in 1760s Bulgaria will probably not sound beautiful to you now. A lot of Klezmer sounds very dissonant to western European ears (even compared to Prokofiev/Stravinsky etc), owing to the uneven tuning systems and microtonal inflections used.

In its day the music of Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt and Rimsky Korsakov music was just as new and shocking as Ligeti's Requiem at its premiere. Saint-Saens disapproved of Debussy's music, it was too modern for him.

So why can't you see that all you are doing is saying what most people have been saying all along? "I don't like this new music, it's too hard for me to understand." But time after time this majority turns out to be wrong - Mozart is now the most famous composer in the world, and there must be some reason for this!

Why bother to listen to a new composers work if you can't get used to the artistic shifts that grew out of the times we live in? The *modern* music you listen to on this site expresses the way that a lot of people are feeling right now. And what is on this site represents only a small snippet of the world, that is full of composers who aren't messing around trying to sound "pretty" and trying to imitate masters of the past. If everyone did all the time Rimsky Korsakov would have been spent his career copying Palestrina.

And I have to say, you would be surprised at the number of people who go to contemporary music concerts - I've never been to a contemporary concert in a major concert hall that wasn't packed. So your talk about writing for an audience really is irrelevant. There are many audiences.

What you're saying about inner-worlds is extremely short-sighted, and in some ways kind of offensive. How do you know what expresses someone's inner thoughts and feelings? Personally, I'd say that music like Ligeti's Requiem is more effective at directly expressing the composers inner thoughts and feelings than anything by Mendelssohn. Sounds are just sounds; like colours and just colours. Saying that composers shouldn't use sounds from the real world is like saying painters should never depict anything abstract.

Also, are you aware that in Japanese classical music, the ultimate goal of the shakuhachi (flute) player is to recreate the sounds of the wind passing through Bamboo shoots?

Anyway that's my rant for the moment.

meh I hardly ever write for an audience. The only time I would write for an audience would be if I was writing for a specific occasion for example the piece I'm working on just now which is to be played in our cathedral for my violin teacher's retiring concert. Obviously then I might have to take the audience into consideration a little since obviously if I composed something evil, dark and violent it might send out the wrong messages about my teacher lol or perhaps even offend some of the more religious people there, although I doubt that very much. Having said that, I would still not write with the audience's taste in mind. They might actually really like a genre but not know that they like it because they haven't experienced it yet or worse; think they have experienced it but haven't. I, like Mitchell, write for myself and only for myself. If you don't like modern music Sauls why don't you challenge yourself and look for one you do like. I thought I didn't like modern music because of a certain piece I heard on the Proms (I think its called crushing twister. Its about an orchestra trying to emulate the sounds of a dj or something) and then I heard other modern pieces and discovered that infact, I really like modern music; I just didn't like that one piece. I would recommend the "Rite of spring" (if you haven't already heard it. It's by Stravinsky) if you think that all pieces require beauty to be effective. In places I thought it was really scary and believe me it carries emotion without being that beautiful (IMO). Its one of my favourite pieces and its truly violent lol. Or if early 20th century isn't modern enough for you listen to some serialism. Some of that is weirdly hypnotic.

Ehehe... nice comment Matt... I just think that I've stopped losing my time and efforts for those who are just 'short sighted' as you said. This is an eternal war that rages here... of every time... even in Greece 500 years BC it was the war between the Canonico

meh I hardly ever write for an audience. The only time I would write for an audience would be if I was writing for a specific occasion for example the piece I'm working on just now which is to be played in our cathedral for my violin teacher's retiring concert. Obviously then I might have to take the audience into consideration a little since obviously if I composed something evil, dark and violent it might send out the wrong messages about my teacher lol or perhaps even offend some of the more religious people there, although I doubt that very much. Having said that, I would still not write with the audience's taste in mind. They might actually really like a genre but not know that they like it because they haven't experienced it yet or worse; think they have experienced it but haven't. I, like Mitchell, write for myself and only for myself. If you don't like modern music Sauls why don't you challenge yourself and look for one you do like. I thought I didn't like modern music because of a certain piece I heard on the Proms (I think its called crushing twister. Its about an orchestra trying to emulate the sounds of a dj or something) and then I heard other modern pieces and discovered that infact, I really like modern music; I just didn't like that one piece. I would recommend the "Rite of spring" (if you haven't already heard it. It's by Stravinsky) if you think that all pieces require beauty to be effective. In places I thought it was really scary and believe me it carries emotion without being that beautiful (IMO). Its one of my favourite pieces and its truly violent lol. Or if early 20th century isn't modern enough for you listen to some serialism. Some of that is weirdly hypnotic.

I like modern music, beautiful that is, something that gives me joy.

But I cant stand nonsensical "modern" music.

I like modern music, beautiful that is, something that gives me joy.

But I cant stand nonsensical "modern" music.

Problem is that you seem to be lacking experience and maybe (maybe, because I have no idea who you are or what you have done, and I'm not interested in you as a person, but only as a member of YC Forums (and not much at that either to be honest)) knowledge as well.

You can't stand nonsensical "modern" music. How do you judge it? By compairing modern music with Mendy? :-/

I have absolutely no problem with QC (for example, and I'm not trying to drag him into this conversation at all. Just using an example), not liking certain stuff. He is 45 and has gone through, even the Avante Garde route. That said, simply (for me) gives him the right to choose "better" (if there was such a way). In your case, I have not seen any examples or indication that you have done the same. There is the point I'm having trouble with. You are dissaproving (which is within your rights of course, and you do need to realise that this post serves only philosophical ideas and nothing more) stuff and music, without listening to it whole (by listening 2/11 or 4/22 minutes), and by not having any experience or (probably) knowledge to judge in the first place. Add to the above, maybe an not 100% open mind, and there you have it!

Disclaimer: The above do serve a debate and nothing more. For all I know Saul, could be my next door pal, who we drink beers together. It is nothing personal, but only serves a different idea.

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finally,

Saul.

I hope, that I have proven to you that I'm capable of writing music that you enjoy (I would propose to you finding a thread called, Robbie-E29 and listening to the music. I'm almost sure that you will enjoy it very much).

Would you be interested to learn maybe something more, and see that a composer that IS capable of writing something that you, even, enjoy, could come up with something that you may not enjoy at first for his own reasons? For reasons that need something more... than simply listening to music maybe.

I can perfectly well udnerstand that you may not like a certain composer. End of story. His style does not fit you! His outputs are awful for your taste. But if someone is producing also works that you do enjoy, maybe there is something missing from the point of view of the listener, and not the composer?

Think about it (and really, listen to Robbie, you will enjoy it!)

(maybe, because I have no idea who you are or what you have done, and I'm not interested in you as a person, but only as a member of YC Forums (and not much at that either to be honest)) knowledge as well.

Thanks... this kind of attitude really would want me to listen to your music. You sure have an original way of convincing. :)

Anyways ...

I have heard your Robbie-E29 , cute and nice melody. The only thing I can critic here is that a section of this piece reminds me of something I have heard before, cant remember from where, but I think it was used before. But I

I have heard your Robbie-E29 , ...a section of this piece reminds me of something I have heard before,...I

Because, Robin, I actually said so... :-/ while writing it, I didn't realise what/who I was copying. I've already mentioned it to the Robbie thread, it's the 5th piano concerto, 2nd movement, Beethoven.

What I mean, Saul, is that, if composers can handle and have choices to make, aestehtically speaking, maybe it could potentially be worth looking into more outputs, and see why the composer choose such a harsh, awful to your ears, environement in the first place. And so on...

Of course it is ok not to like some works, and of course it is ok not to like my outputs as a composer, or even the member called "nikolas" that chasses you all around. :cool:

But if you have something against all modern sounding music (which appears that you do), this is why I'm making this whole discussion.

So The Chamber is nonsensical modern music then? If that is the judgement you have made after 4 minutes then you are not worthy enough to even listen to my music.

Because, Robin, I actually said so... :-/ while writing it, I didn't realise what/who I was copying.

Ah...I see.

..

So The Chamber is nonsensical modern music then? If that is the judgement you have made after 4 minutes then you are not worthy enough to even listen to my music.

HS, to whom is this directed?

I like modern music, beautiful that is, something that gives me joy.

But I cant stand nonsensical "modern" music.

I bet it's this :)

Since the whole thread started out from the Chamber which is a work of HS. Additionally the fact still remains that Saul, has not heard the whole of the work and yet he is insulting HS, as well as me, when he did not listen the whole of Obscese Obsession (only 2 out of 11 minutes, and 4 out of 22 minutes in The Chamber by HS).

If you think about it is highlu insulting. No judgement, no nothing, he just thinks that both works (without even having listened to them in their whole) are rubbish somehow.

I just can react a bit better, and are fine if he promises to stay away from reviewing works he has not heard whole (and he did promise that to my works, so... yeah... whatever)

So The Chamber is nonsensical modern music then? If that is the judgement you have made after 4 minutes then you are not worthy enough to even listen to my music.

Please calm down.

Saul,

Think of what you said from Hymnspaces' point of view.

You just (yesterday) said that his music is nonsensical, additionally without having listened to it.

It is insulting!

Saul,

Think of what you said from Hymnspaces' point of view.

You just (yesterday) said that his music is nonsensical, additionally without having listened to it.

It is insulting!

I said 'nonsensica modern music' in very general way. No way reffering to his Chamber work.

That's why you guys need to relax. I dont have anything against your music. It just doesnt speak to me, move on now.

...the fact still remains that Saul, has not heard the whole of the work and yet he is insulting HS, as well as me...

If you think about it is highly insulting...he just thinks that both works (without even having listened to them in their whole) are rubbish somehow.

In Saul's defense (:)) I can understand why he'd not bother listening to an entire piece. There's been many times where I've switched off a tune or cd after the first three minutes, knowing I don't like it. If I return to it after some time (years even), with greater understanding I find I often do like the music...

It's a matter of personal tastes, current listening level and how open your mind & ears are.

On the other hand, I'd never presume to review or criticize something I haven't given a full and complete listening. You're right Nik - that would be insulting, rude and pretentious.

...

In Saul's defense (:huh:) I can understand why he'd not bother listening to an entire piece. There's been many times where I've switched off a tune or cd after the first three minutes, knowing I don't like it. If I return to it after some time (years even), with greater understanding I find I often do like the music...

It's a matter of personal tastes, current listening level and how open your mind & ears are.

On the other hand, I'd never presume to review or criticize something I haven't given a full and complete listening. You're right Nik - that would be insulting, rude and pretentious.

...

You are a saint critic.

You are a saint critic.

No, I just have respect for other people.

On the other hand, I'd never presume to review or criticize something I haven't given a full and complete listening. You're right Nik - that would be insulting, rude and pretentious.

...

But that's exactly what he did! Offer a totally negative review, in both cases, without having a full listen beforehand. :huh:

Other than that, Saul, I have done my best to give you an understanding that it's not music at fault always, but also the listener, when something does not work between the two. I have shown you the way, and so on, and indeed, won't bother any further.

But that's exactly what he did! Offer a totally negative review, in both cases, without having a full listen beforehand. :huh:

Other than that, Saul, I have done my best to give you an understanding that it's not music at fault always, but also the listener, when something does not work between the two. I have shown you the way, and so on, and indeed, won't bother any further.

You want to blame me?

No problem.

Youre music is wonderful.

I just dont like it, and I dont want to listen to it.

But the music is fantastic, really great.

I made it clear how long my piece was (22 minutes) and if you think you are not up to the task of hearing the whole thing then don't bother. I don't understand why you left a comment based on 4 minutes of music, you could have just simply said nothing at all as if contributed not in the slightest to giving me feedback or improvements.