Alkan: Difficult to Grasp ?

Charles-Valentin Alkan (November 30, 1813

Scriabin's sonatas are probably up there with them...... it's hard to even read the notes when there are so many of them, so many accidentals, and so many unusual rhythms.

I absolutely adore Alkan's Concerto for Solo Piano. That is a real masterwork.

I am personally enoamored of his Sonatine. The final movement to that work is a real barnstormer.

I absolutely adore Alkan's Concerto for Solo Piano.  That is a real masterwork.

I am personally enoamored of his Sonatine.  The final movement to that work is a real barnstormer.

Yes, are you referring to the Sonata " Les Quatre Ages " ? Because I'm unaware of the Sonatine .... I'll have a look though. Thanks .

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Akhil G.

Originally posted by Maestro Akhil Gardner@Nov 19 2005, 11:08 PM

Yes, are you referring to the Sonata " Les Quatre Ages " ? Because I'm unaware of the Sonatine .... I'll have a look though. Thanks .

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Akhil G.

No, not the Grande Sonate 'Les Quatre Ages". I do not find that work o be terribly interesting honestly. The Sonatine Op. 61 is distinctly different. I have both the Sonate and Sonatine on Hyperion CDA66794.

No, not the Grande Sonate 'Les Quatre Ages".

Originally posted by Maestro Akhil Gardner@Nov 21 2005, 05:16 AM

Marc - Andre Hamelin , yes ?? He is such a freak. Yes I am collecting his recordings like hot cakes - especially those on Hyperion - Romantic Concertos. I will go and "buy" this recording of the sonatine - coz I have a burnt copy of the Sonata, would love to own a copy.

How can you go past the 8 part fugue in the Sonata ??? :blink:

I've managed to collect the entire Romantic Piano Concerto Series on Hyperion (waiting for the Scharwenka 1st and Rubinstein 4th to arrive in the mail). They are my favourite classical recording label by far. I've almost 100 Hyperion CDs in my collection. And yeah, Marc-Andre Hamelin is the bomb. :)

I think I had trouble with the Sonata because the musical material itself didn't really interest me at the time I listened to it. I have not listened to it in some time, so perhaps now that I have matured a bit more musically, I might enjoy it on that level.

Thank you for your recommendation. :-)

So, has anyone tried to play any of Alkan's fiendishly difficult Pieces ??

Here is the Concerto for Solo Piano: (Don't forget to Vote)

Where? I can't find a link to it.

Alkan is indeed a wonderful composer, and that is quite a difficult piece, but it by no means the most difficult - in fact, it is easy in the scheme of things, especially if you compare it to many works from the 20th century, specifically by Sorabji, Finnissy and Ferneyhough, to name just a few. However, a good question would be whether or not it's the most difficult piece that is still worth anything musically - in this case, I would still disagree, as Sorabji, who wrote incredibly difficult music, also wrote some of the most beautiful music I, personally, have heard.

I would also say that some works by Ravel and Rachmaninoff are right up there with the Alkan as well.

On a pianist forum the question of the most difficult piano repertoire always brings up the names of Sorabji, Busoni(sometimes), Godowsky transcriptions of Liszt, and maybe one or two others I can't remember but I think I rarely heard Alkan brought up for some reason, I suppose maybe because his works are more musical and less difficult than they sound? I'm not sure but he is definitely up there from what I have heard.

But my question though is what is the point? Why do some people have this great obsession with which works are difficult or not? Does difficulty equal beauty or greatness to you? Poll 100 people on the street about the greatest works of all time and I guarantee you not a SINGLE human among them will name Alkan, Sorabji or any of the other composers we are here discussing. That doesn't mean they're bad but I am trying to illustrate the point that no one appreciates pointless difficulty, I just find it strange how often threads like this about difficulty are brought up. Who cares if there's some 'unplayable' pieces, maybe it titillates some sort of shock value excitement in some of you I don't know but personally to me difficulty turns me off MOST of the time (not all) simply because in 90% of cases difficulty is a disguise the weak composer hides beneath in an attempt to conceal his lack of inspiration.

Yes I do agree with that, though I would have never found out who Alkan is if it wasn't for this forum, and I am very grateful that I have. Now to find out who this Sorabji guy is, I read a biography on him but I haven't heard anything of his. You know where I could go?

Sorabji has arguably written the most difficult music ever performed.

He is most well known for the difficulty of his music. Most of it is written on 3-7 staves because he couldn't fit all of the notes on two. His largest works are anywhere from 3-10 hours long. His piece "Opus Clavicembalisticum" (commonly referred to as the OC) is considered by many to be the most difficult piece for piano ever performed and recorded.

Opus Clavicembalisticum is 250 pages long, and one can only see the sheetmusic to fully appreciate its difficulty. It is so incredibly difficult, that so far, only two pianists have released recordings - Geoffrey Douglas Madge, and John Ogdon. Unfortunately, both of these recordings are, for lack of a better word, terrible. Madge improvises most of the piece, and Ogdon's interpretation is so harsh that he makes most of the piece sound like noise. There is, however, one pianist who is currently performing the OC who can actually play it well - Jonathan Powell. He has not yet recorded it, though.

Recording of Sorabji's shorter piece "In the Hothouse" - http://www.sorabji.com/sound/piano/hothouse.ram

Two fascinating interviews with pianist Michael Habermann about Sorabji's music - http://www.michaelhabermann.com/sounds/_index.html

A topic I made about the many mistakes in Madge's CD - http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12002.0.html

As for recordings to buy, I recommend the Fantasie Espagnole, Le Jardin Parfume, Gullistan, Djami, the 1st Sonata, and Michael Habermann's recording of Sorabji's transcriptions. If you enjoy those, you might want to look into the 4th Sonata and 1st Toccata.

I do not suggest that you buy either of the OC recordings. Wait for Powell's.

Here is a sample of what Sorabji's music looks like -

What's amazing is, despite its complexity, Sorabji wrote some of the most beautiful music I, for one, have ever heard. I really would suggest looking into his music. I don't think you'll be disappointed if you enjoy Ravel, Debussy, or Scriabin.

Best regards,

John Carey

It seems that Shyper shut down my website, so you can't view the pictures. I'm trying to get this fixed.

I've heard of a piano solo written by a Donald Martino called Pianississimo that some experts consider to be the most difficult piece of piano music ever written. I have never heard it myself, though.

Sorabji seems more pretentious, hardly comparable to the likes of Ravel and Debussy, at least if this piece is any indication. It's just this sort of overemphasis on expression / underemphasis on form and thematic development that I tend to shy from. I'll say this for it, though - he sure can jam notes together. The tempo's so freeform, I wonder how it could ever be put to sheets, it sounds much more improvised than written. I've actually heard jazz players rival this without writing anything down.

Sorabji seems more pretentious, hardly comparable to the likes of Ravel and Debussy, at least if this piece is any indication. It's just this sort of overemphasis on expression / underemphasis on form and thematic development that I tend to shy from. I'll say this for it, though - he sure can jam notes together. The tempo's so freeform, I wonder how it could ever be put to sheets, it sounds much more improvised than written. I've actually heard jazz players rival this without writing anything down.

That is the case with his nocturnes, however his later works, like Opus Clavicembalisticum, are very tightly stuctured and organized. Since I generally don't like tight form, I enjoy the earlier improvisational style better than the later "Baroque" style, as it is often called. As for "thematic development", Sorabji develops his themes more than any other composer I've ever seen (even among the likes of Mahler). For instance, Opus Clavicembalisticum has over 20 important melodies throughout its 12 movements, all of which reoccur in later movements - even in the final movement, after almost 4 hours has passed, he is still developing material he introduced in the first movement.

Best regards,

John Carey

Maybe im reading that wrong, but some of that piece seems to be impossible.

I don't just mean: wow - hard to play, i mean some of the chords require too many fingers :)

Yea, I agree with johann.

And requiem.

I think the ones who focused too much on virtuosity usually were bad composers.

imo, this includes liszt and pagannini for starters.

That is the case with his nocturnes, however his later works, like Opus Clavicembalisticum, are very tightly stuctured and organized. Since I generally don't like tight form, I enjoy the earlier improvisational style better than the later "Baroque" style, as it is often called. As for "thematic development", Sorabji develops his themes more than any other composer I've ever seen (even among the likes of Mahler). For instance, Opus Clavicembalisticum has over 20 important melodies throughout its 12 movements, all of which reoccur in later movements - even in the final movement, after almost 4 hours has passed, he is still developing material he introduced in the first movement.

Best regards,

John Carey

I would recommend Sorabji's Toccata No. 1 as a good work to introduce yourself to. It was written in aperiod of Sorabji's life where he tried to simplify his means of musical expression. It's very accessible I think, and give sone a good feel for the adherence to form and the scope of his means of expression.

I also recommend his CD of Piano works by Donna Amato on Altarus Records AIR-CD-9025. That CD includes some of his pieces that are meant to tell a story. They are fairly 'easy' to grasp.

Maybe im reading that wrong, but some of that piece seems to be impossible.

I don't just mean: wow - hard to play, i mean some of the chords require too many fingers ;)

It's not impossible. I'm currently learning it. It's incredibly difficult, and I think perfecting it will most likely take a lifetime -- literally -- but it isn't impossible. It is written for anybody with a normal amount of digits on their hands.

And by the way, just to add to the rest of the discussion, I have to say that Liszt's Transcendental Studies works were the toughest pieces I've ever learned (next to this one now).

Well hello there Derek.