Chord Progression Questions

These are a couple of questions I've had for a while now that are somewhat related to chord progressions. This is the right forum for this, I hope.

1. Can I use both v and V in a minor key, regardless of which type of minor it is in (natural, melodic, harmonic)?

2. Can I borrow from a key whose chord is nonexistent in the key I'm already in? Like borrowing from V in natural minor (v in harmonic/melodic), or like borrow from Eb Major in C Major (I guess that'd be a bIII or something)? Furthermore, can I just plain use one of those chords, like I in a minor key?

I know it's possible, but I want to know if it'd be practical for Classical use. If anyone could answer my questions or point me to somewhere that I could get my answers, I'd very much appreciate it.

You can use both forms - V/v - it depends entirely on the situation. But remember V is the true "dominant chord" in any piece in a major or minor key - you can't have a perfect cadence in the tonic using v - I. A very common example of v being used is in the following progression that leads to an imperfect cadence (which is Baroque cliche used by all composers of that era):

I vb ivb (sometimes with a 7-6 suspension) V

I think the basic rule to abide by is that in A minor, G natural leads down to F natural (as you can see in the bass line of the above progression). G sharp usually leads up to A (which is why we have the melodic minor scales ascending and descending).

When it comes to borrowing chords, it really depends on what style you're writing in. In Shostakovich's 8th String Quartet in C minor there is a famous moment where a cadence runs

V biii IV V7 (with a minor 9) I(with a 4-3 suspension)

Which means he's taken one chord biii that is entirely unrelated to the key and one chord IV that belongs in the major rather than the minor.

You just wouldn't see that in Beethoven though. In the Classical style, there a few "borrowed" chords you can expect to see - the Neapolitan sixth for example (bII) and the augmented sixth (which is on bVI). In Schubert's music you sometimes see fully fledged modulations into the bVI area, and occasionally into the neapolitan (also in Beethoven).

Hope this helps.

Yeah, you've helped. Thanks; just a couple things that confused me:

2) You can use both forms - V/v - it depends entirely on the situation. But remember V is the true "dominant chord" in any piece in a major or minor key - you can't have a perfect cadence in the tonic using v - I. A very common example of v being used is in the following progression that leads to an imperfect cadence (which is Baroque cliche used by all composers of that era):

1) I vb ivb (sometimes with a 7-6 suspension) V

1) With that progression: I'm not used to seeing "vb" or "ivb"; what is that?

2) Regarding the first paragraph, does that mean that using v-i doesn't work (as a perfect cadence), or just v-I?

Thanks again.

Regarding v-i and v-I: I see nothing wrong with using them, with the understanding that

1) they're not common practice;

2) you're not going to get the same "final" sound with the v as with a V chord.

I've ended a minor-key movement with v-I before, but it was the first movement of a larger work, and there was a sustained note that led directly into the next movement.

Another comment on your original post... Don't think about minor keys as being natural, harmonic, or melodic. Those are just scales that describe common uses of minor keys, and are mainly used for practice! In minor keys, you will find that the 6th and 7th degrees are quite freely raised and lowered, depending on context.

Regarding v-i and v-I: I see nothing wrong with using them, with the understanding that

1) they're not common practice;

2) you're not going to get the same "final" sound with the v as with a V chord.

I've ended a minor-key movement with v-I before, but it was the first movement of a larger work, and there was a sustained note that led directly into the next movement.

Another comment on your original post... Don't think about minor keys as being natural, harmonic, or melodic. Those are just scales that describe common uses of minor keys, and are mainly used for practice! In minor keys, you will find that the 6th and 7th degrees are quite freely raised and lowered, depending on context.

Okay! Thanks very much. That's something I've actually been wondering about. That helps a lot. :huh:

Yeah, you've helped. Thanks; just a couple things that confused me:

1) With that progression: I'm not used to seeing "vb" or "ivb"; what is that?

2) Regarding the first paragraph, does that mean that using v-i doesn't work (as a perfect cadence), or just v-I?

Thanks again.

Hey

"vb" just means v in first inversion (the third of the chord in the bass).

Just to add something about using v-I or v-i - these progressions do exist, but they're not "tonal" as much as "modal", and you will see them in renaissance music or in 20th century music such as Vaughan Williams or sometimes in Ravel etc.

I might add that you can use v - I as a way of modulating to the subdominant.

v - I - IV... In C:

D.............E...F

Bb.(down) G...A

G...(down).C...F

You can use v - i to modulate to the flattened subtonic (bVII), if you also add IV.

In C, modulating to Bb

D.............Eb......Eb.........D

Bb (down) G.(up) A..........Bb

G..(down)..C (up) F.........F

.(bass)..........................Bb

v..............i........IV7.....bVII

You can use any chords at all in progressions provided you prepare for them right. Questions to ask yourself are: 1) is this in good taste? and 2) Have I followed the rules ?

You can use any chord you want, anywhere, whenever. Unless your goal is to sound exactly like the classical period, there are absolutely zero rules in music. Why don't you just try out different chords and see which ones sound the best to you? That's the bottom line isn't it? If it sounds good, how can it be wrong? :o

I suppose it's just my personal preference. I just happen to like following Classical/Romantic rules.

Anyway, thanks for everyone's input. :o

A cool thing to do(If you're into the classical thing) is to anticipate the chord of resolution with a couple of voices. Baroque trills are sort of a precursor to this.

Just to add something about using v-I or v-i - these progressions do exist, but they're not "tonal" as much as "modal", and you will see them in renaissance music or in 20th century music such as Vaughan Williams or sometimes in Ravel etc.

This is sort of OT, but worth pointing out. You can certainly see such progressions written in modal Renaissance music, but you should be aware that in almost every case the leading note should be sharpened (turning the v into the expected V). This is one of the most important kinds of musica ficta--accidentals that are not written but expected to be added by the performer. In all but perhaps the earliest polyphonic music the leading note should be sharp in all cadences in all modes except the Phrygian (where you might say that the leading note is in fact above the tonic). So although people occasionally use minor dominants when they want to sound "Renaissancy", they ought to know that it's essentially a misunderstanding, and would sound very odd to Palestrina and pals.

Good point - my mistake.