The music theory thread

[Guest Anders]

I'm suprised there isn't any seperate forum devoted to this! This thread should suffice untill one of the administrators get their act together! :)

I'll start by asking:

Does the ballade have any fixed form?

Discuss and debate away! :)

[Mike]

Damn, we just deleted the old music theory forum and merged the posts inside it with the General Discussion forum!

Well, right now we're experimenting with categorisation and suchlike. You never know, the music theory forum may return.

P.S. I have no idea as to the answer to your question :)

[Guest BitterDuck]

I'm suprised there isn't any seperate forum devoted to this! This thread should suffice untill one of the administrators get their act together! :)

I'll start by asking:

Does the ballade have any fixed form?

Discuss and debate away! :)

I know the poems have a form, but not sure about the music ballade!

[Guest Anders]

I checked around a bit, and it doesen't seem to have any fixed form!

Next question: (Why am i the only one to ask questions? :) )

tell me the significance and meaning of neopolitan sixths! (what are they, in which context are they used, etc etc)

[J. Lee Graham]

tell me the significance and meaning of neopolitan sixths! (what are they, in which context are they used, etc etc)

I could try to explain it, but a picture (or two) is worth a thousand words.

Go here: http://www.teoria.com/reference/chords/18.htm

[xyc]

Okay I've been reading some about 'modes' and all these different scales that are out there. I remember learning about those scales (whole tone, blues, etc.) in Preliminary Music Rudiments but never understood them.

Basically... how does one compose in a 'mode' or how does that work?? Is there a whole different theory in a different scale (like pentatonic, for example) and then the dominant is a different note, etc.?? Or... can one compose, really, only melodies for those rare scales??

I have pretty much no understanding about this at all!! ;) I'm pretty sure it's impossible to explain in a terse manner, also... but could somebody clue me in a bit?!?

P.S. I just tried putting Neapolitan sixths in my latest work! ...To me, it sounds very ugly... but maybe I'm using it wrong or figuring it wrong or something... *shrug*

[EKen132]

It's so key to put the third in the bass. Always the third in the bass or it won't sound good!

[Guest BitterDuck]

It's so key to put the third in the bass.

[J. Lee Graham]

I think what Ken means is that...well...

Say you're in C major, and you want to use a Neapolitan Sixth. Neapolitan Sixth is a bit of a misnomer in my opinion...it is a chord, but it's also an implied chord progression, more importantly.

The Neapolitan Sixth progression in C major would be from D-flat, to G (or G7), to C, just as in the illustration in the link I posted above. That D-flat chord is the Neapolitan Sixth, and the word "sixth" refers to the fact that the root of that chord (D-flat) is a sixth above the note in the bass, which is F (D-flat triad: D-flat, F, A-flat).

In a true Neapolitan Sixth chord, you must have an F (the third in a D-flat chord) in the bass, or it won't sound right. So...the bass line in the progression is: F, G, C. You couldn't really use D-flat, G, C in the bass...it wouldn't sound right.

Does that make any sense?

Choosing another key: in E major, the Neapolitan Sixth would be an F chord with an A in the bass, and the progression would be: F (A in the bass)to B (or B7) or E.

Incidentally...

Inversions: when the example I linked talks about first inversion, it's a way of referring to which pitch of a triad is in the bass.

In C major: the pitches of the triad are C, E and G - the root (or tonic), third and fifth degrees of the C major scale.

Music would be really boring if the tonic note of every chord were always in the bass. So, if you have a C major chord, but there is an E in the bass, we call that 1st Inversion.

So in C major:

if C is in the bass: Root position

if E is in the bass: 1st inversion

if G is in the bass: 2nd inversion

Also, in a C7 chord, the tones are the C major triad (C, E & G) with a B-flat added (the flatted 7th degree of the C major scale).

So, for a C7 chord:

if C is in the bass: Root position (as before)

if E is in the bass: 1st inversion

if G is in the bass: 2nd inversion

if B-flat is in the bass: 3rd inversion.

Hope that helps a little.

[Nightscape]

xyz, the Modes are among my favorite musical devices. In fact, the Prelude for Orchestra I submitted to this site is composed completely using the Dorian mode on B (In other words, the only notes you'll find in the entire piece can be found in the Dorian Scale starting on B. Incidentally, the notes are B C# D E F# G# A)

You're probably referring to the Ancient Church Modes, So I'll explain them for you. There are 7 of the modes. Their names are Aeolian, Locrian, Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, and Mixolydian. Like the major and minor scales they can be transposed to any key, so as there are 12 major scales you can play on a piano, there are 12 Dorian scales you can play on a piano also.

You remember how a major scale is composed of a certain order of half and whole steps, right? Well the modes just have those half and whole steps in different places (like how minor differs from major). Let's start with Dorian. If you want to make a Dorian scale, you can find an easy one by playing D up to the next D on a piano, using only the white keys in ascending order. The notes are: D E F G A B C D. That's Dorian. You'll notice it has the same "accidentals" as C major, and also it has the same key signature. So a shortcut for finding any Dorian scale, is to take a major scale and play it starting on the second note of that major scale. Phrygian is the same as Dorian, except start on E this time. Lydian for F, Mixolydian for G, Aeolian for A, Locrian for B, and Ionian for C. You'll notice that Ionian is the same as a major scale and Aeolian is the same as a natural minor scale.

Anyways you wanted to know how to compose with them. Well, unfortunately there is no vast quantity of music on paper written in the modes to study, so musicologists haven't created all of the "rules" of harmony like they have with music using major and minor scales. Usually when discussing a modal piece, you don't using roman numeral progressions like I-IV-V-I. Some of the modes don't even have a real IV or a V in them. For example, the V in Locrian is actually a diminished triad, so of course it can't function the way a G chord does in C major.

To write in a mode is one of the freest things you can do. Almost any combination of pitches sounds right, and in many ways writing in a mode is like writing serialistic music (in terms of freedom of harmony, not number wise). This might make modal writing sound easy, but in fact if you aren't careful modal music can end up sounding very dull and uninspiring. The trick is learning what notes to use and when, in order to create a proper sense of tension and release.

Keep in mind too that most true modal pieces are quite short. For example, my Prelude I mentioned is under two minutes. For longer pieces, it is best to experiment with additional harmonic devices to create further interest. Some of those might include pentatonic scales, octatonic scales, synthetic scales - but that's a topic for another time.

What boggles my mind is that this type of writing seemed to lose all credibility after the impressionists died out - much remains to be explored here. Just take a look at Slominsky's Thesaurus of Musical Scales and you'll see what I mean. I guess people were just more interested in serialism and aleatorism.

[Guest Anders]

since xyz apearently got his answer, i'll just ask a quick question!

Does the symphony have any fixed form?

[CaltechViolist]

There's a fixed symphonic form, but it's bent or broken so frequently that it's only a guideline.

A symphony typically has four movements:

1. Moderate-to-fast movement, in sonata form. Often begins with a slow introduction that is not part of the main sonata form.

2. Slow movement.

3. Scherzo. Fast, usually playful movement in ternary form. Beethoven wrote the first scherzo, replacing the dance movement (usually a minuet) that was typically used in earlier symphonies. Some symphonies still use the dance movement.

Note: the order of the two inner movements is frequently switched.

4. Finale, typically at a quite fast tempo - this is where you see a lot of the fireworks! Usually in rondo form, though sonata form is also used quite frequently.

[xyc]

Thanks, Nightscape, for the answer. 'Cause when I was thinking about it I was wondering for all the thousands of possibilites in the world of scale (including those using notes in between our notes), does each one have its own rules similar to the major and minor keys. I guess the answer is... maybe? Overall, though, thanks because I was just going to try to screw around with the modes but was wondering about the harmony of it.

Okay... but how do you know you're in Dorian. If you were playing the Dorian mode of C major and you just tried different things... after a while I know I'd naturally accidentally use C major's 5 and 7 together or something and then naturally resolve with 1 and 5 and then the song would just be a poor song in C major (which appears to be written by someone with no understanding of harmony at all). With some of the scales I was talking about I guess it's easier to tell you're in it... like pentatonic.

Last thing: You, Nightscape, said "experiment with additional harmonic devices to create further interest." Which made me wonder: can you modulate from one mode to another and how does that work?? Or should you just start using another mode and, after long enough, it'll become apparent? And you mentioned using a pentatonic scale as an additional harmonic device. Now, how would you use it? Just suddenly pop the whole scale in there, or just start using a bunch of its notes??

I think writing modes may be either the easiest... or most difficult thing to do.

(Btw, my interest in this first arose when I wanted to try to write an oriental sounding song for my friend's game they made (in Rm2k3 if anyone cares) and I started, then immediately realized I don't understand how the harmony in a pentatonic scale works (because pentatonic is used a lot in Asia, right).. and then I got afraid and never wrote anything. I should really experiment more. However, did ancient China have harmony or did it use just melody? Err.. I'm asking too many strange questions...)

[EKen132]

The easiest way to compose in pentatonic (and this is sort of cheating) is to just improvise on only black keys on a piano until you find somethign that sounds good, then transpose to whatever key you want later.

Almost any combination of notes sounds good. But you only have 5, so there's a lot less combinations. Anyhow, just improvise and you'll find something good in no time, I'm sure :happy:.

[Nightscape]

xyc, the modes do have certain chord progressions in them, but there aren't as many as in major or minor. Keep in mind that if you are composing in Dorian in the key of C (starting on D using the white notes) you want to make D sound like the tonic note, not C. In Dorian, a good progression is i - IV - i (by that I mean the chord DFA to GBD and back to DFA). Another progression is i -ii -i or i -III - i (see how a lot of these never seem to come up in major and minor). Anyways, in addition to these progressions you can make your harmony sound more interesing by using added-note chords. For example, you could spice up i -IV - i by adding additional notes in various registers that aren't in those chords normally.

All I can say is that in Modal writing there is not so much emphasis on vertical movement - if anything it's not about getting from chord A to chord B, it's about enjoying the moment and creating beautiful combinations of sonorities along the way. Frequently, modal pieces are quite horizontally based (using a lot of counterpoint) and also break the rules of traditional part writing to good effect. Parallel fifths and fourths, for example, are quite common and are very idiomatic and actually sound good. I once used a tool in Finale to check my Prelude for parallel fifth movement and it came up with over 50 of them! Yet changing this would totally destroy the essence of the modality.

Alas, the only real method to learn is to use your ears. A good way to experiment is to try this. With your left hand, only play chords that are made up of notes in the Dorian scale. Then with your right, create a melody that uses only the notes of a pentatonic scale (it can be in any key, experiment until you find a pentatonic scale that provides the right amount of tension). This is actually a form of bitonality (two keys at once) but really it's better to call it bimodal. As far as chord progressions in pentatonic scales there really are none - as it is used more for melodic sources. You'll find that creating chords using the pentatonic scale there will be an abscense of a feeling that the chords have to resolve somewhere - because in the pentatonic scale, almost every chord is "connsonant".

[jim]

hi everyone. i'm new here, & think it's great to find all of this useful info/answers to questions. I've also been interested in composing with the modes, & at first got stuck on the problem of how to use harmonies. what more or less resolved the problem for me was reading some books on jazz theory. i don't compose jazz & don't want to, but those who do are very big on using modes, & even pentatonic scales. still, i haven't found the sorts of 'rules' of harmony as we have for major/minor scales, & jazz music usually modulates far too often for my taste. but at least it's a genre which keeps the use of modes alive,& has come up with lots of its own ways of doing so.

oh, and i'd also recommend looking up indian ragas, many of which use the same scales as the diatonic modes. the rules of these ragas can be useful in developing motifs, and they have a specific mood. i found some excellent material at a local university library, from which i've photocopied heaps. ;)

Jim.

[Guest Anders]

I actually cooked up a little dorian thingy as a wee tyke, check this out, it's pretty funny! :unsure:

[CaltechViolist]

I actually cooked up a little dorian thingy as a wee tyke, check this out, it's pretty funny! :unsure:

Speaking of Dorian mode: the fourth movement of my horn concerto (see the My Compositions forum) is written in G Dorian.

For a good example of modern usage of Dorian mode, listen to the first movement of Ernest Bloch's Concerto Grosso No. 1 for String Orchestra and Piano Obbligato.

[Guest BitterDuck]

I actually cooked up a little dorian thingy as a wee tyke, check this out, it's pretty funny! :unsure:

I'm not exactly sure how dorian your piece is. You started and ending the piece to on D and the dorian that has a B flat in it is G dorian. If I had say you did your piece in D minor or D aeolian. (SP)

[Nightscape]

Yes, BitterDuck is right. Your piece is in D aeolian, not D dorian or d minor. You can tell because while D is the 'tonic', important pitch in your piece, there are Bbs. Also it is D aeolian and not d minor because you used C natural as the leading tone into D instead of C#. If you would like to see how it would sound in Dorian (it may not sound good if you wrote with the Bb in mind) just apply a key change to "C major" and hold the pitches modally.

[christianc]

I also have a music theory question,

I studied the basic of harmony, but in many scores, chords don't make any progression...or all the voices are going up by the same intervals, etc.

When do we need to use harmony rules!?

[J. Lee Graham]

I studied the basic of harmony, but in many scores, chords don't make any progression...or all the voices are going up by the same intervals, etc.

When do we need to use harmony rules!?[/b]

I don't understand the first statement at all, but the easy answer to your question is: we don't need to use harmony rules. There was a time when it was absolutely necessary (I'll allow the padagogues to explain the historical reason why if they care to), but it's not now. Suffice to say that the history of Western music has progressed in a certain direction, and everything we do in music now has its roots in that progression, which is why we still study it.

We can't re-write the history of Western music, but we can make our own choices about what we do from here. The idea behind studying music theory is to make informed decisions instead of stabbing in the dark and hoping you come up with something that sounds good. I suggest that if you write in a tonal, classical vein, it would be best for you to follow as many of the rules of traditional harmony as you can for as long as you can, then when you have assimilated them, you can begin to branch out and break those rules judiciously - or throw them to the wind entirely. But at least you will be making informed, educated decisions, because your study will inform anything you do from then on.

[Guest BitterDuck]

I also have a music theory question,

I studied the basic of harmony, but in many scores, chords don't make any progression...or all the voices are going up by the same intervals, etc.

When do we need to use harmony rules!?

It can be a few things. You are reading modern music scores or you cannot see chords unless they are homophonic. The voices going up by intervals which are the same you are probably reading modern music again.

Well, in college you are forced to learn the rules so that you can write music within a certain time period. It also helps you form a general idea how things sounds. When you compose your own work you do not need to follow the rules of harmony but at the very least you know them and can make say "I know parallel 5ths are not allowed but I think the sound they produce is something I Want in my music", instead of doing something randomly and by chance.

[christianc]

Well, what I meant, is that harmonic rules states things like no parallel fifths, while some compositions of classical and romantic composers have many...

[J. Lee Graham]

Well, what I meant, is that harmonic rules states things like no parallel fifths, while some compositions of classical and romantic composers have many...

You sure about that? By "classical," do you mean 18th Century composers like Mozart and Haydn, or do you mean classical in the more general sense, as in any composer of "serious" or "art" music?

18th Century Classicists would only have used illegal parallel motion in error. For example, Mozart's pupil Franz Sussmayr, in his great haste to finish his teacher's Requiem after the master's untimely death, made several errors of this kind that generations musicologists have used as ammunition to support their case that Sussmayr was unworthy of the challenge - a charge I believe to be as unjust as it is untrue, but that's beside the point.

Even the relatively unfettered Romanticists would only rarely have broken the illegal parallel rule, and then only for effect.