Proper form

Quick post regarding the proper form/structure of

1) an overture

2) a standard three movement concerto

Is there a set, definite form for these two types of pieces and, if so, what?

Note that when I refer to form I am talking about things such as Rondo, Sonata-Allegro, Ternary, Binary, etc.

Thanks for your help.

Clasically, an overture is usually written in sonata form, but often without a development section (as substitution, it tends to use a slow episode).

As for concerto form, I refer you to post #7 of this lesson thread. :)

I just did a psych assignment on expectations. It was on a study on why the AAB form is the most common. Think about stand up comedy, the biggest punchline is always the third one right?

The paper went on to talk about how once you've heard A twice your brain logically expects to hear it again. When you use B instead you've given us something new and unexpected that our brains can gurgle with pleasure over.

In music it's sort of like Bach's rule. The third time is always different.

Don't know why I brought this up but it seemed relevant.

Well a concerto needs a double exposition of course, but there are many forms you could take. Originally there was just Italian and French versions. Italian being ABA (fast - slow - fast) and French being AB (Slow - Fast), so you could think of it that way.

Sonata-Allegro Form was used later on for sure. Is it often without a development? I know Mozart did it in the Marriage of Figaro but that's the only one I can think of.

I think a lot of the time Concertos went in a "Sonata (concerto first movement form or whatever)-Ternary-Rondo" pattern for the movements. I'm probably wrong, though.

No, that's quite right.

For a classical concerto that's probably a good generalization. An elaborate second movement could well be in sonata form (which is sort of ternary anyway) without being "non-standard", so to speak. And though ending with a rondo was very common, another sonata movement or a combination wouldn't be unthinkable.

Baroque concertos of the Italian (fast-slow-fast) sort (at least after Vivaldi) usually begin with ritornello form. The slow movement could be in binary form, or some sort of ground bass. The third movement would often be a dance-like movement of some sort (in triple metre), in binary or ritornello form.

Earlier concertos often took the form of a sonata da chiesa (slow-fast-slow-fast), with a fugal second movement, and perhaps ending with a slow-fast dance pair, such as sarabande and gigue.

BASICALLY:

If you are writing a concerto, you generally want to have:

1. Fast movement, USUALLY Sonata-Allegro form

2. Slow movement, USUALLY Ternary form (I think it sounds cool when it's a mini rondo - ABACA)

3. Fast movement, either a DANCE or a RONDO

An overture was originally an entrance to an opera, containing the main themes of the work. They generally went something like this:

1. Introduction - whatever the composer has in their head

2. Main theme 1 - a fast theme. Last note sometimes cut off before a GRAND PAUSE into the next theme.

3. Main theme 2 - Slow theme.

4. Main theme 1 again

5. development of the main theme

6. Closing - random, or return of the main theme.

Hope this is accurate and useful :P

Alex