Orchestration: PART 1 (woodwinds) discussion

Hey - just notifying you that I'm back from the grave. Sorry about the long wait on my part - I could make excuses, but I don't want to bother you with my problems.

I will do my best to catch up, and I promise that the next post in this forum will have lots of exercises!

Alex

Getting in on this a bit late, so I just did exercise #1. I'm going to move slowly as you recommended, both to allow better creativity and also to incorporate the feedback/corrections you give. #1 was very simple, though you did seem to oversimplify the problem of tessitura into "strong" and "weak" categories... some instruments might not be said to be either at any point in their range, but only different in timbre.

Please point out any mistakes, make any comments you wish, I'd appreciate anything and everything! Sorry these are separated into eight PDF files, I have no way to merge PDFs into one document and I wanted to be a little creative with my choice of key. Noticed in another student's exercise that all four were on the same staff... were you meaning for us to use the same key for all weak versions/strong versions, so they would play together?

Flute weak.pdf

Oboe weak.pdf

Clarinet weak.pdf

Bassoon weak.pdf

Flute strong.pdf

Oboe strong.pdf

Clarinet strong.pdf

Bassoon strong.pdf

well, the oboe could have been higher still to explore the "weak" range, and likewise the basson could have gone much lower to take advantage of its louder adn more pungent low notes. flute could have gone still highe to keep as much of the melody in its "strong" range.

I think I mentionned that the terms "weak" and "strong" were relative and that all the ranges were usable.

Obviously, exercise 1 was meant as a "getting to know you" exercise first and foremost.

The idea of "weak and strong" registers is more one of getting into the habit of understanding that certain instruments will have an inate strength in certain registers whereas a different instrument might not be able to compete in the same register.

This concept is particularly important when creating doublings. Both weak and strong registers can and should be used to best advantage when creating mixed timbres, however, first comes the need to understand that there ARE weaker and stronger registers for various instruments.

I wrote a melody for solo flute, trying to write a 12 tone row that sounded nice, and (hopefully) succeeded. Then, I decided to try and orchestrate it for winds, as I'd completely forgotten about this, which I am very sorry about Michel, I know how much work you've put into this and I hate myself for not putting the same amount back :(

Originally I wanted to go for ex.5, but I didn't think it was long enough to get the full use of 2 of each, so I tried it for wind quartet, hope that's ok ;)

The 12 tone row is the flute part, the bassoon is playing a counterpoint and the oboe and clarinet doubling motifs and filling in the harmony in the latter part. I've tried to include as many performence instructions as I could to convey what I wanted to, but I'm not sure if it worked; I was going for a kind of light, bouncy feeling, hence the stacatto and fairly fast tempo.

Once again I'm sorry I've not given your exercises as much attention as they deserve.

:D

2 part exercise.MUS

it's all rather "low" in register for all the instruments.

Thi isn't a bad thing for SOME of the instruments (all the reeds) however, the flute part will suffer.

It's a bit short for me to judge how well you are treating the ensemble.

If you really want to write another example, try doing a somewhat more "lyrical" phrase, something with breadth, where the orchestration can come out a bit more.

And DO try to use all 8 woodwinds of the wind section... writing quartets is not what this course is about ;)

Thanks, I shall try and come up with something a little longer and more suited to this exercise, may take me a while though... *boots brain into action*

I had a go at the first exercise, if someone could let me know if it's right that'd be cool.

Question: Why do they write the Clarinets in Bb, so like it sounds a tone lower than what it is written as?

So, if I write C, it plays Bb yeah?

Why is Sibelius too dumb to realise this? I inserted a clarinet in Bb, and it still just played a C.

Should I have transposed the Clarinet higher so it would actually read to play a C?

That would have complicated things right, like I would have had to change sharps and flats etc. instead of just pressing 'up'?

Were we supposed to keep the piece in the same key or use any key we want?

Cheers!

[ATTACH]9442[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]9443[/ATTACH]

I had a crack at the second exercise too. I have totally fallen in love with the higher, weak range of the bassoon.

Woodwinds Doubling Exercise

I did three different variations of the same short melody, all with the bassoon in it's higher range. I love the kind of desperate, helpless feel that it is capable of - kind of like a washed up baby seal quietly crying out for help :horrified: :whistling: :laugh:

:blink:

1. Octave doubling with a flute in its strong range. I originally liked this one the best and thought it really amplified the exhausted, desperate feel but now I'm going off it. I think it feels kind of empty because of the gap between the two; although the flute is in its strong range it doesn't seem strong enough.

2. Unison doubling with a clarinet in its strong range. I thought this gave it a more hopeful/curious feel.

3. Unison doubling with an oboe in its strong range. I think this gives it a satisfied, humble, relaxed, homely kind of feel. The sound of the oboe is growing on me.

Question: I read the part about how you can double two of the same instrument, a flute for example, and together they will sound like a different instrument. But I thought there already like TEN flutes playing in an orchestra??

BTW, thanks a lot, I'm really learning a lot from reading these masterclasses.

I had a go at the first exercise, if someone could let me know if it's right that'd be cool.

Question: Why do they write the Clarinets in Bb, so like it sounds a tone lower than what it is written as?

So, if I write C, it plays Bb yeah?

Why is Sibelius too dumb to realise this? I inserted a clarinet in Bb, and it still just played a C.

Should I have transposed the Clarinet higher so it would actually read to play a C?

That would have complicated things right, like I would have had to change sharps and flats etc. instead of just pressing 'up'?

Were we supposed to keep the piece in the same key or use any key we want?

Cheers!

ok, that's a lot of questions.

I'd suggest getting a book on instrumentation, such as the Piston Orchestration manual. It's not too expensive.

Your examples have a few basic instrumentation flaws. For example, the flute and oboe registers you used are too low to acually be played on those instruments.

The goal of the exercise was to transpose up or down so as to place the phrase in one of the desired registers of the instrument in question.

Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about Sibelius, however, I am SURE that it has a transposition function to deal with instruments in varius keys.

Question: I read the part about how you can double two of the same instrument, a flute for example, and together they will sound like a different instrument. But I thought there already like TEN flutes playing in an orchestra??

BTW, thanks a lot, I'm really learning a lot from reading these masterclasses.

Generally speaking an orchestra has two of each woodwind:

2 flutes (with the second doubling on the piccolo)

2 oboes (with the second doubling on cor anglais)

2 clarinets (with second doubling bass clarinet or little Eb clarinet)

2 bassoons (with second on contrabassoon where needed)

Some orchestras have access to larger woodwind sections: woodwinds by threes or even fours, as required by whichever piece of music they are performing.

The goal of this masterclass, however, is to start by learning how to deal with the basics. And in this case, basics will be woodwinds by 2s.

Thanks for your help.

I think I've sorted the first one out...

[ATTACH]9451[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]9452[/ATTACH]

Thanks for your help.

I think I've sorted the first one out...

well, you've reversed the order of the flute's strong and weak registers.

that might have been an inadvertant typo?

Remember, flute and oboe are polar opposites. Each is weak in the other's strong register.

And just in caes you missed where I mentionned it, the concept of "strong and weak" registers is not an absolute rule. It's a guideline. The registers of each instrument, whether "strong" or "weak", all have their uses. The idea is to learn where those uses are best.

A "weak" register can become a quality depending on the context.

For example, the piccolo's weakest register is its very bottom octave. However, in music that is extremely delicately orchestrated, for example pp shimmering string tremolos, a piccolo melody in that register gains a magical effet that no other instrument can reproduce.

Likewise, the "strong" register of an instrument can be an impediment to good orchestration. If you place the oboe consistantly in its lowest register, even in moments of extremely soft music, it will stick out like a sore thumb.. or an asthmatic duck (depending on the ability of your oboist).

Learning where and when to use strong and weak registers is the key to good orchestration.

I'm attaching a brief recording of something for piccolo, oboe and strings to demonstrate what I mean.

It starts with the piccolo against strings, in its weakest register. That register gives the piccolo a breathy, mysterious quality. Surprisingly, the sound is almost that of a wooden instrument, like a recorder.

This will come out even more with a real orchestra playing. (for an excellent example, listen to the first emasures of the opening track of John Williams score to E.T.)

This is followed by a rather "honk-ish" oboe on its very lowest notes, here used to create an effect of pungency.

Now the oboe moves to its higher register (its "weaker" zone if you will) and demonstrates where its use in that register can bring out all of its melodic softness.

The piccolo then interjects in ITS strongest register. In the high notes, the piccolo has a bit of difficulty controlling the volume, so don't expect pianissimo piccolo in the highest octaves.

Brief demo of oboe and piccolo in weak/strong registers

Oops! Yeah, that was just a dumb mistake with the flute. I didn't save the original file, just printed the pics, so I had to redo the whole thing. Guess I was rushing a bit :innocent:

Thanks for that little lesson and recording. I see what you mean, weak and strong doesn't mean "bad and good".

Cheers.

I had a go at the Chord exercise too.

This is a D Minor; it has a very daunting energy. Reminds me of the first chord to those tunes they play on merry-go-rounds.

[ATTACH]9456[/ATTACH]

Woodwinds - D Minor

Any good?

I had a go at the Chord exercise too.

This is a D Minor; it has a very daunting energy. Reminds me of the first chord to those tunes they play on merry-go-rounds.

Any good?

there's no "good or bad" in this course

just better and better :)

You might consider where the majority of the instrumental weight is placed. Your upper part is rather sparse, while the lower part is heavier.

This will work to certain effects, but won't ALWAYS be what you want to create a nice sound.

How about trying it again, using some of the other forms of intervalic integration? for example, two oboes between two clarinets? or between the two flutes? or staggered instruments, one flute, one oboe, one flute, a clarinet, the other oboe, and the next clarinet...

Do you know what the harmonic series is? If you play a single sound in teh low register, for example on the organ or on the piano, overtones will sound above that note. The first one will be the octave, then the 5th, then another octave, and so on. The point being that low sounds do well when they are doubled at points that coincide with harmonic nodes.

So starting from the lowest note of a chord, an accoustically strong next note is the first octave up. Then the 5th up from there, then again up to the next the octave (here meaning the next "same" note). Once this base is set, you can start entering the 3rds of the chord and 7ths if they are present in your harmony.

The important thing here is that I don't want people orchestrating "like me".

I want them to learn as much as they can from what I CAN teach them, and thus be better able to go off and do something that is entirely unique to each composer.

So the goal of most of these exercises is to try them in as many ways as possible and experiment.

Get feedback on why some might work better than others, and find directions you might not have gone otherwise.

More questions :D

1. In the chord I wrote above, the clarinets and the cor anglais are notated incorrectly, right? Even though Sibelius plays them correctly, they should be written higher?

2. The piccolo is played an octave higher than it is written?

Cheers.

let's say you are writing a unison middle C for cor anglais and clarinet, then you would notate it as G a 5th higher for the cor anglais, and as D a 2nd higher or the clarinet.

And yes, the piccolo is notated one octave LOWER than it actually sounds.

Is there an option in Sibelius to "see score in concert pitch" or something to that effect? This MIGHT make things easier for you for a while.

Is there an option in Sibelius to "see score in concert pitch" or something to that effect? This MIGHT make things easier for you for a while.

Ah thank you I'll look into that. Basically Sibelius is playing a written C as a C for clarinet for example. It makes things easier when you don't have to consider these notation differences, but I'd rather get used to the proper way NOW instead of than 3 months down the line or whatever.

Cheers :)

Okay, I felt like doing Exercise 3 all the sudden, so here it is.

Db major chord, I was trying to put everything as close together as possible. Lots of closed intervals here, I wanted a quiet hummmmmm, at pianissimo at most, maybe less; pianississimo (thus, the flutes in their lowest register have room to balance). Would it be too much to ask the English horn/cor anglais to play up an octave? That would be written high C, I have no idea how that would work at such a low dynamic, but I wanted THAT instrument on the top if possible. I wanted to emphasize the third of the chord, the F.

I would usually have a chord like this with only half the woodwinds, but I wanted to see if I can do it with a full section.

Exercise 3 - J4.MUS

Okay, I felt like doing Exercise 3 all the sudden, so here it is.

Db major chord, I was trying to put everything as close together as possible. Lots of closed intervals here, I wanted a quiet hummmmmm, at pianissimo at most, maybe less; pianississimo (thus, the flutes in their lowest register have room to balance). Would it be too much to ask the English horn/cor anglais to play up an octave? That would be written high C, I have no idea how that would work at such a low dynamic, but I wanted THAT instrument on the top if possible. I wanted to emphasize the third of the chord, the F.

I would usually have a chord like this with only half the woodwinds, but I wanted to see if I can do it with a full section.

OK, let me comment in a bit of detail your chord.

There is a minor problem in the piccolo - its lowest note is a D natural.

I think that your flutes could have been placed a tiny bit higher, they do risk being lost in the double reed sound.

Your oboes are right in the middle of what is generally their most lyrical and comfortable zone. Written that way: a 4th, it risks being more pungent than you really might want. For some reason, 4ths and 5ths in the oboe REALLY stick out.

The english horn is the exception in the double reeds. It is capable of a very carefully controlled pianissimo in its lowest register, so placing where you did is actually quite nice. You might even have placed it an octave LOWER!

Now, for the clarinets, they end up doubling notes of both oboe and flute. I don't know if that's really what you want as an effect. If you are really looking for a pianississimo effect you might try less actual unison doublings, and more open spacing.

The bassoons can handle where they are quite well. The contrabassoon, on teh other hand, is going to be just a tiny bit straining.

My only concern is that the flutes may dissappear in the texture, they're in a particularly vulnerable place where they are now.

You might consider moving them up a tiny bit, maybe a 5th higher, where they won't necessarily "shine" through the texture, but they will at least be a tiny bit more present, maybe atttenuating the oboes a bit.

Really no intention of arguing here, but if the entire section is at pianissimo, can't the flutes balance the others more easily, as if playing a mezzo-something or other? Possible? No? If not, why does this not work?

Ok, I mentionned in the course somewhere that it is best to balance using register and timbre than trying to adjust through dynamics.

Generally, giving different dynamics to different instruments is an artificial way of dealing with a balance problem. The best thing is to learn how to deal with same-dynamic issues before experimenting with alternating dynamics.

One of the main reasons trying to balance through the use of dynamics doesn't work, is that dynamics are relative. Giving louder dynamics to one instrument can lead to believe that that instrument is a solo. Which of course destroys the effect of blending you are trying to achieve.

This is why I refer to it as an "artificial" way of dealing with the issue. It relies too heavily on explanations and additional text in the score.

It is always best to balance naturally.

Hey, I had a go at the woodwind-orchestration-over-the-strings-part exercise, please let me know what you think.

Here is the audio:

Woodwind Orchestration Exercise

And the score (woodwinds only):

[ATTACH]9471[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]9472[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]9473[/ATTACH]

Cheers!

I think, at this point, it would be interesting to get some feedback from some of the other participants on this.

I see a serious problem in the very first measure. Did anyone else see it?