Orchestration: PART 1 (woodwinds) discussion

Thanks very much for looking at it, and I certainly agree about the flute entrance :)

Your first statement seems to imply that 'musically' there may be concerns? I know it's not really related to the masterclass, but would you mind perhaps pointing them out?

Again, thanks very much :D

Thanks very much for looking at it, and I certainly agree about the flute entrance :)

Your first statement seems to imply that 'musically' there may be concerns? I know it's not really related to the masterclass, but would you mind perhaps pointing them out?

Again, thanks very much :D

oh no!

I'm sorry if it lead you to think I had concerns.. it was rather that I looked at it without taking anything "musical" into consideration (style, harmony, etc...).

When I correct as many orchestration exercises as I end up doing here, it becomes hard at times to ALSO examine in detail things like counterpoint and harmony.

What I should have said was "I didn't take the time to look at the music itself..."

Hey, Qccowboy, did you get a chance to look at my exercises yet?

Chris, with so short a phrase, I would avoid having so characteristic an element in the first few measures, which does not return later on (the flute triplet).

OK, I understand where you were going with it, however, know that while you may have though of the middle part as the "main melody", because you have more than one instrument on the upper part, and you have two instruments in very strong registers up there (flute and clarinet) THEY are what will come across as the "main melody".

If you want to use the mid-range as your principle focus, then you have to give the mid-range as much of your attention as possible, and REALLY give the upper range as little.

Right now, it's a very nice, solid octave doubling. It works quite well, but I think you will be disappointed that it won't exactly give the effect you're looking for.

Also, don't forget to include dynamics! right now, I have no idea whether this phrase is soft or loud.

for the bassoon staccati, instead of skipping from one instrument to the other, why not give them BOTH something to play? either have one playing in the upper range, or octave/double the staccato notes to give them more weight.

Actually, this is something I'd like to comment on.

I notice a lot of orchestrations (I'm not singling out anyone here, it just appears to be a common problem) where the orchestral parts jump from one player to another and then back.

From the point of view of orchestration, unless an instrumental part is very long and exhausting, there is no audible reason to switch from player 1 to player 2 and back again.

Thechnically, player 1 should sound identical to player 2!

OK, I understand where you were going with it, however, know that while you may have though of the middle part as the "main melody", because you have more than one instrument on the upper part, and you have two instruments in very strong registers up there (flute and clarinet) THEY are what will come across as the "main melody".

If you want to use the mid-range as your principle focus, then you have to give the mid-range as much of your attention as possible, and REALLY give the upper range as little.

I see, I didn't consider that the low flute was in a weak register. Would something as simple as bringing the high clarinet into unsion with the flute and oboe solve this problem?

Also, don't forget to include dynamics! right now, I have no idea whether this phrase is soft or loud.

I won't trouble you with all my questions about this, but do you know of any good resources where I could learn about this kind of thing? I am not musically educated and am lacking familiarity with even some of these basic things.

Thechnically, player 1 should sound identical to player 2!

Could you elaborate on this please?

To me, it would mean unison doubling them all the way, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean.

Cheers.

P.S. Please don't forget my exercise 4 on page 17 :D

if you had only a solo flute in the upper octave, with oboe and clarinet and flute doubling on the median melody, then it would carry a bit more weight. The upper flute would act as a harmonic reinforcement.

There are a lot of great books out there... I really can't recommend any. Look for something on "musical essentials" maybe? I have one from when my sister was taking piano (hey, my mother figured one musician in the family? why not have two!) called "Elementary Rudiments of Music". I keep it handy for the spellings of some of the more obscure indications, however, it seems to have a lot of information going from harmony to notation.

If we look at your bassoon parts, you use bassoon one for a phrase, then skip to bassoon 2, then back to bassoon 1.

Why?

Ask yourself "why give part of a phrase to one musician, then skip to another musician playing the exact same instrument for the next part of a phrase?"

It has no audible effect.

here's a little example of what I mean. the way this phrase is written will make absolutely no discernable difference.

OK, Chris, my concern with exercise 4 is that instruments come in in a way that will rather point to their entrances rather than make them subtle and smooth.

The first oboe entrance, for example, is VERY strong. It will suddenly bring a huge change in texture to the line. Which is not what we are looking for with this exercise.

The first oboe entrance, for example, is VERY strong. It will suddenly bring a huge change in texture to the line. Which is not what we are looking for with this exercise.

Is the oboe's entrance too strong because of the particular moment it was brought in, i.e. half way through a melodic phrase?

Ask yourself "why give part of a phrase to one musician, then skip to another musician playing the exact same instrument for the next part of a phrase?"

My thoughts were that I should spread it out more, like I have this worry of writing a piece where the second bassoon would only playing for 2 bars or something, for example, and it would seem like a waste.

But yeah, I see that what I did was pointless.

Thanks.

BTW, I just want to mention that a part of this course that I've found really helpful are the sample mp3s you created to show examples in doubling woodwinds etc. It's great to hear what these instruments really sound like, even if they are only samples.

Also, I noticed there's a lot of good woodwind examples in the film Home Alone 2 ;)

My thoughts were that I should spread it out more, like I have this worry of writing a piece where the second bassoon would only playing for 2 bars or something, for example, and it would seem like a waste.

I used to think like that, but if you notice an instrument is getting inactive do one of following:

• Double it with another instrument, test new timbres!

• Create a counter-melody

• Use it as sustainment, if you have a rather 'dry' piece.

I used to think like that, but if you notice an instrument is getting inactive do one of following:

Bassoon? Very, I think ;) I've never played one myself, but alot of people I know have said that it's one of the most difficult orchestral instruments :thumbsup:

Hehehe, bassoon was my second instrument in college... it's great!

Fingerings are a bit of a scallop in places, but after only a few months I was playing the Hindemith bassoon sonata.

In case you didn't know, it's one of my favourite instruments, along with viola.

In case you didn't know, it's one of my favourite instruments, along with viola.

Good taste!

Love for the bassoon has stuck with me since I bought my first CD, a couple of bassoon concertos by Vivaldi. Unfortunately I can't play it.

Well I took your advice and started your exercises! I'm going to post the first three as everyone else did in the attached PDFs! Thanks for all the help!

Orchestration - Woodwinds 1.pdf

Orchestration - Woodwinds 2.pdf

Orchestration - Woodwinds 3.pdf

Wayne, on exercise 1 I think you mistake the effect of the oboe... you have the upper register labeled as "strong", with teh lower range labeled as "weak". The oboe in its lowest 5th will sound considerably more pungent than any other instrument in the orchestra except possibly a muted trumpet.

Be careful about how you notate your trills. For example, the very first one, for flute, has a D#, but with a trill with a flat sign. It doesn't make sense harmonically, nor melodically. A trill on a D# would be half-tone to E natural, or whole-tone to E#.

Actually, I notice that you erred in your transpositions. You have four sharps as the key signature, but from what I am now interpreting of yor page of exercies, you mean to have mostly naturals there.

With exercise 2, the second example, while you ahve the clarinet in a solid register, the flute is ALSO in a very solid register as your phrase advances. The flute tone will dominate the sound.

Exercise 3 is fine, but, I would prefer if you orchestrated a simpler chord, and attempted to create a "mood" through the orchestration rather than through any inherent effect of the harmony.

In other words, is the predominance of any particular timbre in a mass of sound creating a wanted effect?

Rather than relying upon a chord which will create that effect regardless of the orchestration chosen.

Very good exercises, none the less. I am looking forward to the next set.

I thought I'd post my Exercise 4 before going on to 5 and 6 just to know if I'm doing things right.

I wasn't sure what kind of file you wanted, as most people don't have Finale 2009, so I attached a mus file; xml, pdf, and midi, and I"ve linked to the mp3 below:

Orchestration - Exercise 4

Orchestration - Woodwinds 4.pdf

No harmony. Only what is present in the string. The woodwinds are to be ENTIRELY unison or octave doublings.

Harmony = Gone

Orchestration - Woodwinds 4.pdf

Harmony = Gone

hehehe. good.

ok, comments measure-by-measure:

measures 1 - 4: I'd think that the trio of clarinet and bassoons might be a tad heavy. you might consider simply one cl. and one bsn. that way you get the compounded timbre of the single and double reed.

measure 4: be VERY careful of sudden changes in both register AND timbre.

in this particular case, you are leaping up 2 octaves, and changing to a VERY different timbre - the flute and oboe in octaves.

One important aspect of this sort of exercise is to keep nice smooth transitions from one set of instrumetns to another, instead of just jumping from one to another.

measure 5: your clarinets coming in in octaves this way will definitaly SOUND like an instrumental entrance. I don't think it suits the concept of smooth transitions and a smooth melodic line.

measure 6 - 7: here we have the same issue: a radical change of timbre, as well as a shift in register. Your 2nd oboe dropping off suddenly from a VERY pungent low register will sound like a sudden "hole" in the texture.

I also dont think that a flute and an oboe are sufficient to create the effect of that crescendo at measure 7.

It is important to learn how to orchestrate dynamic changes, rather than simply indicate crescendos and dynamics. Smooth entries on instruments, on different beats, will create a gradual increase in density of timbre.

measure 10: I don't think the oboes are the best choice for a sudden piano effect. Particularly since one is, again, in that particularly pungent extreme low register.

measure 12: I think that doubling flute and oboe on this phrase detracts from the "echo" effect of the phrase. Look carefully at the phrase. There was a shift in dynamic to a very soft dynamic, then that single little phrase repeats at the end. You did the preceding phrase ending with a solo oboe... so why not another solo instrument? and why the large shift in register? by shifting register up like that you bring a great deal of importance TO that little echo section. It should be almost a musical after-thought.

**********

OK, a good first try. Care to try again?

You can check the version I did and examine the transitions and register changes.

Better? I couldn't find your version of it!

I also neglected to say, thank you very much for all the work and time put into the lessons and especially for being so patient with such a slow learner!

Orchestration - Woodwinds 4.pdf

Better? I couldn't find your version of it!

I also neglected to say, thank you very much for all the work and time put into the lessons and especially for being so patient with such a slow learner!

you can find mine on page 7 of the thread.

I will try and link to it (I'm not very good with these link thingies, so I hope it works)

my post where I include my realization of the melody

By the way, considerably better your second realization of the melody.

I'll come back a bit later and comment a bit more fully on it.

Better? I couldn't find your version of it!

I also neglected to say, thank you very much for all the work and time put into the lessons and especially for being so patient with such a slow learner!

ok, I'm examining your second realization now.

measures 1-3: the clarinet and bassoon has a nice sound in unison.

measure 4: the oboe now replaces the bassoon... however! I undertand that they are both double-reeds, but the oboe's sound is considerably clearer and brighter. There will be a relatively strong shift in texture when you hand off from the bassoon to the oboe.

measure 5: DO be careful about the sudden entrance of a new timbre AND a new register. Here you're bringing in the flutes (non-reed instruments, very crystaline sound) which are a new timbre, AND you're also adding a new register element (the 1st flute is one octave higher than the melody has been until now).

you might, for example, have considered using the 2nd flute from the very beginning, in its lower octave (weak register). Its sound would not ahve dominated the timbral mixture, however, it would at least be present for when you add the 1st flute later on, without causing a sudden timbral shift.

measure 6: again, a lone flute and oboe is VERY thin for the beginning of a crescendo.

Notice that at measure 7 flute 2 is in its very weakest register? It won't be adding substantially to the density nor timbre of the sound.

measure 8: AHA! there is no diminuendo. So why are you orchestrating one? Technically, that entire measure should be forte to the end.

Over all, I'd say be careful about so freely using unisons of same instruments. It's not in any way an error, but it's not something to which you should resort as a first choice in all situations. So I've seen lots of bassoon unisons and clarinet unisons in your realizations. From now on, let's keep those for very special instances.

Thanks a lot for these lessons!

Im sending here my first 3 exercises, I have a few notes:

Ex2: Doublings

I used oboe + clarinet one octave doubling, but this produces kind of a comic effect which I don

Strong Registers.pdf

Weak Registers.pdf

Ex2WW(1).pdf

Ex2WW(2).pdf

Ex3chord.pdf

well, for exercise 3 what were you going for?

I notice that it's a 1st inversion chord. That's an awfully large gap between bassoon 2 and the contrabassoon.

The same goes for between flute 1 and the piccolo.

I can say that being a 1st inversion chord, it's good that you reinforce the chord's lowest note, that way there is no doubt that it is a 1st inversion.

there is no problem with doubling a single note out of a chord, if the choice of timbres is well done.

In this case, you are doubling the 2nd flute and 2nd oboe at the unison, the 1st bassoon at the lower octave, and the 1st flute at the upper octave.

It would be important to indicate a dynamic. I'm sure that in a very soft dynamic this chord would work quite well, creating a rather mysterious effect because of those large gaps in the texture in both uppper and lower register (

Sorry, i didnt know contrabasson transpose an 8va lower. I've corrected this and also add a F dynamic. Im taking as a guide the harmonic's scale, doing larger gaps in the bass part, closer in the upper part. I would like to know if this is ok. Whata bout the clarinet in this attempt? Too far?? thanks!

Ex3chord(2).pdf